Should you be able to casst protect with nobody else around and jack warriors def up to 19 because ther are no allies near? Seems a bit too much IMO if it is.
I agree, it's a little annoying.
Perhaps we should remove the ability to cast ability skills on itself.
- Paladin and warrior won't be able to cast def/heal on themselves.
- But, they can cast it on each other (team work)
What about too Bard? (Inspire)
Ross would like more opinion about this.
Yea I agree. Having a warrior run 19/20 def, is just as annoying as a paladin healing himself 1 point a round if a hero is dead.
the bard Could also be fixed because he already gets +2 passive to his rolls. giving him +4 more on his own buff is alot.
The problem Originally stated though is that on the spell tooltip for the warrior it says something about use it on an adjacent ally. not target ally like the paladin's does.
I think that the warrior's ability to use protect on himself is not only too powerful...it doesn't make much sense flavor wise. Maybe if the warrior lost one of his attacks (or both) to protect a character it wouldn't be as overly powerful as it is now. Either that or make the warrior's ability only usable on other characters, but remove targeting and team restrictions.
The paladin's ability to heal herself and the bard's to inspire on her self don't really pose much of a problem in my opinion. The paladin is very vulnerable to stun effects/cripple/dying in one turn with only 5 hps, and the when the bard has +6 to hit, she mostly becomes a bad samurai (at the cost of a card), granted she can place those last few hps of damage on high defense characters better than the samurai.
Since it is only 3 champs, I don't mind having strong champs., But they shouldn't be 19 all the time lol
I like the idea of units being able to buff themselves so wouldn't want to see it removed as a rule but it would have to be controlled or it would be too much.
Originally, the Warrior's Protect ability could only be used on adjacent allies. We changed it in the last update so that he could use it on himself, but I do agree that this seems to be a mistake (as nothing is more annoying than trying to roll 19's on a single character). The idea behind Protect was that the Warrior had to be next to the character because he was, well, protecting him/her...
The current remedy I'm considering for the Warrior at the moment is:
-Remove Warrior's ability to Protect himself and extend his ability to protect others from surrounding units to any units within line of sight
At one point in time, the Bard and Paladin weren't able to use there powers on themselves either, but we changed this since other characters (like Psionist and Barbarian) could still leverage their abilities even when they were the last one left standing. I'm less considered about the Bard using her power on herself (as it is aggressive and helps move the game along) but a Paladin using her healing ability on herself in the end game can get quite annoying- so perhaps her power should only be usable on allies and not herself.
What does everyone think? Should we give that a whirl?
Interesting fix. I do see it as kind of a bodyguard ability for lack of a better term.
Sounds good to me, last game my warrior was running a little to rampant doing that, but the range he is going to be able to grant it at now will be very helpfull.
Ok if his ability is line of sight, do we have to worry about soulreaver abuse with it somehow ?, because if you cast it on a reaver I think its 20 defense, then can you imagine dualing him ugh you wouldnt even attack lol
Im not saying its op or dont do it, was just trying to find the abuseable side of it.
I also like the idea of a champ being able to buff itself, how about if self buffs only were half as strong ? Warrior would only plus 1
O.K. heres the real problem with the ability as I see it.
He loses 2 def, to buff 4. So to cast it on himself is a net gain of 2. So the you lose 2 def part of it really means squat.
But lets say the ability is -2 def, +2 def to ally. Now there is no benefit to buffing himself. Units like soul reaver get +2 def for a total of 18, which is high but not impossible anymore.
I mean this is all opinion but i think some people should be able to self buff and others shouldn't. Like I think warrior shouldn't and bard prolly shouldn't, but pally and other cleric shaman types prolly should.
That's kinda like what I love about this game already is all the possibilities! lol
Well, yea a problem with the line of sight, is that +4 to a paladin/soul reaver/samurai with the warrior on other side of board would almost literally make all of them 20def.
I think if he can cast it anywhere it should be a -1/+1, or keep it close and keep it as is, but must be adjacent ally and not on self.
What if the ability was +4/-4 ? In this case, the Warrior is made extremely vulnerable to attack (basically sacrificing himself to protect a mage or other character). Interesting strategies could be done with this if it were line of sight as well- the warrior could protect and then go hide elsewhere. However, a simple teleport spell or seeker missile could allow players a chance to eliminate the Warrior on their turn instead of trying to go after the 20 defense Soul Reaver. This makes his ability still effective (since a +1 defense doesn't really seem worthy of a discard) but at the same time, it doesn't get annoying by having to deal with a team of super high defense characters.
Yea Ross that sounds cool to me, very playable, powerfull yet at a cost.
That would be kinda fun. Be interesting to see how that plays out.
I see a little flaw in that idea (-4, +4)
The warrior will no longer be suitable out in the open, since 13 defense is wayyy too low after using the skill. So he basically becomes: go out, protect a target, hide for the rest of the game.
What about this instead:
(+4, -2) and range of 3 surrounding spaces. The warrior will still be able to fight (15 def), instead of hiding like a chicken.
We can still try Ross's idea if you want to :-), no harm in that.
I think that this screen shot sums up my feelings about the 19 defense warriors:
(https://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy62/iamsock/Picture2.png)
It took me several turns of constant beatings with hordes of summons, not pictured was the other player's 19 defense warrior that i luckily dispatched with a touch of death. I finally had to stun his warrior so he couldn't go back up to 19 defense...definitely a frustrating and boring experience.
LOL- that is an awesome screenshot! Originally, the Warrior's power actually was +4/-4 but I changed it thinking it was pretty weak since it made him very vulnerable- and at the cost of a card. But, I think that limitation had a lot to do with the range of his ability. The power should really be a means to sacrifice the Warrior to save the life of the Mage. Being able to use the ability from a distance should help mask some of that vulnerability, since you can use the position of walls or other units to still save the Warrior and without requiring enemies to make the tedius dice slugs to defeat him. Even without the Protect ability at all, the Warrior's double attack ability alone makes him a worthy choice of Guardian- especially when coupled with the Fighter Mage. Not only does he grab two valor a turn for attacking, any buffs to his strength get double the bonus!
The power, when he had the ability was not at all OP, and removing the self buff makes him one of the weaker endgame heroes.
If the Warrior is the only one left, he has nobody to buff. There are other methods for getting rid of the bonus defense. Cripple, dispel, eviscerate, touch of death and psychic blast all neatly circumvent this. Moreover, you still have a 1/10 chance of hitting him while he has 19 defense.
Completely unnecessary nerf.
Tors I think i have had 4-5 games where my hero or someone elses hero died, and the warrior left standing (20 def with augument) was able to take down half of the opposing army before being slain. To say its fair to have the only way to kill him easily by finding one of the few cards is insane, esspecially how Offensive the warrior can be.
Give the warrior +1 STR augument and he gets 6 dice per turn. more than anyunbuffed hero and same as a buffed Barb, but19 def vs 14... Still way too defensive for the kind of offense the war can use.
The only way I could agree on a balance of that ability back is to get rid of the warriors 2nd attack. so he becomes just that, a tank.
basically the wars Offense needs to be balanced around his defense (4 dice rolls per turn vs 17 def)
I think it was a neat, clever solution. My current thoughts are that guardians should not be able to use any of these types of abilities on themselves -- making your hero mage that much more integral.
I think these types of measures ensure good fast gameplay, and I am all for that.
The essential goal of the game is to eliminate the enemy mages (the guardians are really the equalizers - serving to carry out your strategy for victory in the early game, break a tie at the end, or provide a means to contribute to the ultimate ending in a FFA game).
Many players are seeing the character balance as needing to be compared on a 1v1 basis. For instance, a lone Warrior will always lose to a lone Psionist because of her abilities. Or a lone Warrior can't leverage all his powers and is therefore less desired. But
Hero Mages isn’t a game where you play just one character- it’s about teamwork- leveraging the strengths of each character to make up for each others’ weaknesses.
Part of playing the Warrior strategically is recognizing his strength in the early game- you have a character that is a tank (with his natural 17 Defense alone) that can nonetheless sacrifice his own defense to ensure virtual protection of a mage or other essential character- thus adding to the vitality of the team. If you find yourself in the endgame with a lone Warrior, it begs the question- why is my Warrior alive and not my mage when I could have used his power to protect the mage?
Quote from: Finjinimo on August 25, 2009, 11:05:26 PM MT
My current thoughts are that guardians should not be able to use any of these types of abilities on themselves -- making your hero mage that much more integral.
I think these types of measures ensure good fast gameplay, and I am all for that.
I am inclined to agree as well. The reason we eliminated the Warrior’s ability to protect himself was that it was needlessly dragging out games where the Warrior was ultimately doomed to be defeated by the mage (adding an extra 10 minutes of dice slugging to an otherwise 15 minute game). Perhaps limiting support powers for other heroes to ally units only (Paladin- we’re talking about you) would also help speed up gameplay.