Hero Mages

IGF Balance Changes
Two excellent callouts from the IGF judges regarding the balance of game play were:

• Too Defensive- entire turns would pass with every attack blocked (I find this especially evident in games littered with high Defense units like Warriors and Paladins
• Too easy to deal a lot of damage in a short time (I suspect Destruction spell barrages are culprit)

What I feel this boils down to is a need to adjust the range of values so that there is a higher probability to cause consistent damage overall but less likelihood to cause lethal damage all at once in such a way that it can’t be anticipated or defended against.  In other words, strategically positioning your units to surround and attack a single enemy is an acceptable form of pummeling since the opponent can see it coming and defend against it.  Teleporting next to and disintegrating an enemy mage or casting a succession of low-cost destruction spells are unfair forms of lethal damage, since the opponent has no opportunity to react or recover with healing spells.

With these proposed changes, I hope to resolve these issues and further develop the characters to make the game even more enjoyable.  The following generalizations summarize the changes overall:
1)   Increased mana cost for all Destruction spells
2)   Creatures may no longer attack the first turn they come into play
3)   Defense values have been reduced for most characters
4)   Increased count of certain spells in deck
5)   Revised abilities to make characters more exciting and attuned to their roles

SPELL CHANGES

Destruction Spell Changes
Blizzard- decrease dice rolled to 2
Demonic Lash- increase cost to 2 mana, allow any visible target, roll 3 dice with exact damage of 2
Disintegrate- roll 4 dice with exact damage of 4
Fireball- increase cost to 3 mana
Ice Shards- decrease dice rolled to 2
Lightning Bolt- increase cost to 1 mana
Meteor Shower- increase cost to 3 mana
Seeker Missile- increase cost to 2 mana
x2 Demonic Lash in deck
x2 Lightning Bolt in deck

I want to reduce the max damage per turn players can achieve through spells.  Keep in mind that with reduced Defense values across the board, we should expect to see more consistent damage in lower amounts.  The intent is to offer players the chance to react to attacks and expose units in order to close distance without the fear of annihilation from Destruction spells in a single turn.

Summons Spell Changes
New Summoning Rule: Creatures are placed according to their specific card.  Creatures may not use actions until their next turn unless they have an ability stating otherwise.

Air Elemental- increase cost to 3 mana, reduce Defense to 13, gains ability Haste: Air Elemental can move and attack the first turn it comes into play.
Earth Elemental- reduce Defense to 14, change Crushing Blow: Earth Elemental’s attack dice results of 15 or more are converted to 20’s.
Flesh Golem- reduce Defense to 12, increase Strength to 3
Iron Golem â€" reduce Defense to 17
x2 Air Elemental in Deck
x2 Earth Elemental in Deck

With the increased the cost of Destruction spells, it was necessary to adjust the summoning rule to maintain the balance of the spell schools.   By eliminating the first turn attack, Summon spells no longer act like Destruction spells and the two schools are more distinct.  It also opens up fun possibilities for “rule breaking abilities”, like the Air Elemental’s new Haste ability.

Manipulation Spell Changes
Imprison- increase cost to 2 mana
Gateway (2): Remove a wall from any space on the board.  Return the wall at the end of the first turn its space is unoccupied.
Sleep (1): Roll a 7 or higher to stun target unit.
Crumble (3): Permanently remove a wall from any space on the board.
Silence (3): Target unit may not cast spells or use special abilities until the start of your next turn.

Gateway was too inexpensive at only 1 mana, allowing for non-Wizards to combine it with Destruction or Summon spells for early game hero kills.  I’ve increased the cost, but also changed the way it works to make the spell more flexible and easier to understand.  Since there’re so many possibilities for Manipulation spells, I decided to add some new ones rather than increase the count of existing ones.  Silence should prove to be exceptionally good at fulfilling the Wizard’s “disruptive” role, while Crumble should help open up defensive maps for more exciting end game brawls.

Augmentation Spell Changes (Will be called Attribute Spells)
Replace Cripple with Sunder Armor (1): Target unit with Defense of 15 or greater gets -4 Defense until the end of your turn.
Replace Dragon’s Fury with Hex (1): Target unit gets Defense -1 until defeated.
Battle Horn (2): All visible allies get Strength +2 until the start of your next turn. (Useful in team games)
x1 Sunder Armor in deck (formerly there were 2 Cripple spells)
x2 Bloodlust in deck
x2 Armor of Aegis in deck
x2 Archon’s Might in deck

Cripple, for its cost, was far too disabling for the already vulnerable mages.  Splitting the spell into an anti-armor and weaker, permanent Defense penalty provides some variation while helping to discourage over-reliance on heavy units (which was the original intent for these spells).  The inclusion of more unit buffs in the deck should also see magic playing a more important role in combat.

Recovery Spell Changes
Revive â€" No longer restricts unit movement- revived unit can use all actions immediately.
Mana Surge- Will only generate 1 mana instead of 2
Full Heal becomes Heal: Target unit recovers 4 life.
Group Heal- increase cost to 3 mana.
Healing Touch- Target adjacent ally recovers 2 life.
x2 Dispel Magic in deck
x2 Heal in deck

The reduced damage-per-turn caused by the increase in Destruction spell mana costs merits a small reduction in healing capability.  Group heal was too beneficial to cost only 2 mana, especially when used in team games.  Mana Surge was overpowered- not only did it grant the ability to form some unfair combos, but it also resulted in the generation of an additional card for nothing.  With the adjustment, you’re now sacrificing a card for a mana.

UNIT CHANGES

Summoner  2S 12D 6L
Skeleton Warrior (1 | 5 Valor): Place a skeleton warrior on target space.  (Cannot be used if Summoner controls 5 or more Skeleton Warriors)
Sacrifice (1 | 10 Valor): Destroy one of your visible creatures.  Summoner recovers 3 lost life.
Summoning Mastery (Passive | 15 Valor): Player’s creatures get +1 Strength +1 Defense.

The Summoner’s army building power is brought to the extreme while the new “creatures cannot attack first turn” rule keeps it balanced.  The value of her Sacrifice ability should not be overlooked; if used every turn, it substantially increases her chance of survival (as seen in the Battle Simulator).  Summoning Mastery is now her ultimate in order to really push players to score that 15 valor.

Sorceress 2S 13D 6L
Fire Rain (2 | 10 Valor): Roll 3 attack dice against all visible enemies. (Replaces Meteor Shower)
Natures Wraith (Passive | 15 Valor): Sorceress can cast Destructions spells for 1 less mana but gets Defense -1 until the start of her next turn for each one cast.

Her previous Damage Bonus allowed ordinary Destruction spells to become devastating without any strategy or risk.  It didn’t serve well to capture the Sorceress’s strategic role.  With the revised Nature’s Wraith ability, she has the potential to annihilate her enemies in a carefully coordinated strike or risk total vulnerability.

Fighter Mage 4S 14D 6L
Dragon’s Fury (2): Fighter Mage gets Strength +3, Defense +3 until the start of your next turn.

A minor reduction has been applied to his Defense (which should be expected as Defenses have been lowered across the board).  In addition, Dragon’s Fury has become a unique spell to the Fighter Mage, and as such, may no longer be cast on other units (it was far too advantageous to combo him with the Warrior and use this ability every turn).  As compensation, however, 6 additional buff spells have been added to the deck, making his Augment Superior much more valuable.

Soul Reaver 4S 15D 5L
Taunt (1): Force an adjacent enemy to attack Soul Reaver.  This enemy may not attack on their next turn.  (Replaces Duel)

The Soul Reaver delights in teasing her enemies, coercing them to attack and then exploiting their weakness.  The intent of the Duel power was to trap her enemy in order to encourage a fight.  However, it’s clear that it didn’t create the psychological effect I wanted and was used by players primarily to sprint towards enemies (mages usually) and pin them on the board.  Her new power better captures the attitude of her character and should make her much more fun to field in battle.

Samurai 2S 15D 5L
Critical Strike (1): If at least one of Samurai’s attack dice hits, his opponent loses exactly 3 life.
Eviscerate (2): Target adjacent unit loses 1 life.

The Samurai is meant to inspire awe and fear from opponents; yet, at the same time, his damage bonus coupled with his high Defense was so good that it trumped the value of other characters.  I’ve recognized players’ need to adjust his power, and while the change may seem a bit extreme, consider that he still beats most units in combat and doesn’t require the expenditure of cards to do so.  Additionally, Eviscerate can now be used regardless of the opponent’s remaining life, adding invaluable offensive capability.

Bard 3S 14D 6L
Inspire (1): Add 4 to target ally’s attack dice with results of 11 or more until the start of your next turn.  (Does not apply to spells or abilities)
Song of Valor (2): All visible allies get Strength +1 until the start of your next turn. (Replaces Precision Strike)

My goal is to further reinforce the Bard’s supporting role and make her an exceptional choice for team games.  Additionally, her Inspire ability is balanced to only take full effect against higher Defense units (it was far too deadly against mages before).

Psionist 2S 12D 6L
Mind Control (1): Roll a 7 or higher to move target enemy up to 5 spaces.  (May not be used on units that are immobilized or sprinted last turn)

I feel what made Mind Control too powerful was the 100% certainty that a Psionist could pull an enemy unit into a vulnerable position every time.  This change adds a 30% chance of failure, giving opponents of the Psionist a reasonable defense against her power while not taking too much away from what makes the Psionist awesome.

Warrior S2 D17 L6
Dual Wield (Passive): Warrior may attack twice per turn, but gets Defense -2 until the start of your next turn if he does.

I’ve maintained the Warrior’s high Defense, but also made it a resource to power his abilities.  This gives players some interesting tactical choices, allowing them to use the Warrior in different ways depending on the situation.  The increased number of buffs in the deck should also make the Warrior more appealing.

Barbarian S5 D12 L7
The lower Defense and higher life pushes the Barbarian further towards the ideal of a hardened, brute fighter capable of dealing more damage and taking more punishment than the average man.

Paladin S3 D16 L5
Paladin gets 1 point deduction in Defense to reduce some of the dice slugging typical of attacks made against her.

Rogue and Wizard
These two already fit well in the rebalanced version and thus have no changes planned.

You knew my input was going to be here quickly:

Destruction Changes
-Blizzard: I do not like this change, 2 dice is meaningless for 3 mana, I already discard this card 9 times out of 10 for the sheer lack of uselessness.
-Ice Shards: Once again 2 dice, this card will be seen more as an ability throw-a-wayer more now.   (Decreasing defense by 1, but dice rolls by 1, is an actual decrease in predictable damage done, less damage done overall yes, that was your intention, but I feel this will really hurt the usefulness of damage spells.) {I propose 3 dice, 1 exact damage, and stun}
-The rest: I like these changes.

Summon Changes
-Air Elemental: Love this change. Definite makes it more interesting

Manipulation Changes
-Gateway: Why the mana increase? Since you increased Destruction costs massivly, gateway at 1 mana is just fine, plus if we keep raising all cards mana costs, 1 spell per turn will get boring extremely fast for players such as I.
-Crumble: Nice new idea but 3 mana? A Mage uses all its mana to remove 1 wall, and not be able to at least do some attack by spell afterwards?

Augumentation Changes
-Hex: I don't like this card, 1 defense as I have stated, since the Def. of all units have dropped, is barely if anything a waste of a mana and card. (I never use +1 def card unless I have 7 cards 3 mana and nothing else to do)
-Cripple: With the bard change, I don't understand why cripple had to change? Not many units have 15+ def as it is (And -4 after a +10 shield [to give 20def] is useless). {Basically another card I can throw away.}
-I do however like the extra amount of Arch might and Bloodlust.

Healing Changes
-I Like these changes all around, with the decrease in Offense added, but mana surge only 1 mana? (The way i play this games "currency" of mana and cards is combined. If i have 7 cards and 3 mana, I have "10" points. A mana surge at +2, is a nice usage to give me an extra point for either a new card or extra spells, especially with all this mana increasing changes. (Being +1 = another card I will throw away).

{Sidenote: As Im typing this, I am currently at 10 cards I will freely throw away without much thought.}

HERO CHANGES
{I will rate the changed units in my personal rating system}
Summoner[/u]
{7/10}
-I Like this small change.
Comments: She needed that help to heal early on, also having early +1 attack and def on summons could be scary. With this she is more able to survive, as long as she has summons.

Sorceress
{5/10}
-First does she not have a 5 valor move? or did you not type it as it is the same?
-Second 10 valor = 2 card discard for 3 dice? So all that changed was it is moved up 5 valor but lost 1 dice? (I do not like this change, as 4 dice almost never hit over 1 as it is, and for 2 cards...)
-Third 15 valor = 1 word description: Useless. Almost every destruction spell was increased 1, and now she can reduce it 1 AND with a def penalty? Unless she carries the +1 mana surge, she cannot cast more than 1 unless an extremely lucky hand.
Comments: As it stands, with the weak spells as they are for 1 extra mana, her only good focal point is her (I assume she still has is) 5 valor lightning.

Fighter Mage
{9/10}
-I agree with this change, but this change isn't one that will tip the balance in forcing him from his #1 duel hero slot, as he is still powerful. (Most my duels, I am extremely unlucky, if it is still undecided by 15 valor, and I think we all know how many kills my FM has, even with unlucky rolls and not using certain units.)
Comments: With such increased mana cost, augumentation spells will probably be the main focus of my game now using this at 10 valor. Because for 2 mana I can cast a Demonic lash that does 2 damage for 1 time only, OR I can give +2 Str buff to a guardian or himself that stays on until death (more bang for your mana buck, since spiking has been reduced, its better to plan long game and not try to kill 1 unit immediatly.)

Wizard
-N/A

OTHER UNITS

Soul Reaver
Comments:
-I don't Hate the changes, but with both Def and HP nerfed, and her only good ability to pin a unit down. I will more likely stop using this unit, unless Random wants to hurt me some more.

Samurai
Comments:
-Definitly glad to see his STR drop a point, to lessen how often he hits, and now 7+ STR samurai won't go around decapitating people.

Bard
Comments:
-Interesting change, I only liked her for her ability to give units +4 to their rolls, and with her having a permanent 2, warriors and paladins were not as scary.
-But, the new ability it was  replaced by? 2 card cost... I just don't like it, 2 cards for +1 strength to 3 (6 in team) units just seems to expensive.

Psionist
Comments:
-I like and agree with this chance of luck on the mind control, I however, though Have to say, with the psionist even losing 1 defense AND gaining no new offensive abilities, she is way way too weak.
-Also can't MC on units that sprinted? That means every other turn if I don't need to attack, or just cast spells I can sprint and make sure im 6+ tiles from all my opposing units and other than spells there is nothing he/she can do.
-(I whole-heartedly disagree with the sprint mind control change, and no extra offense to offset the randomness that is her only true ability. (Especially with lowering defenses, a preset 14 def. Range attack actually buffs half the units defenses for that attack.

Warrior
Comments:
-First change I am very interested in trying. Now he can play as a very defensive unit for 1 attack, or for go some defense to get an extra swing in.

Barbarian
Comments:
-Another change I really like. for 2 reasons.
1. As a barbarian, he is a "beserking" fighting style, meaning he charges in with full adrenaline (all offense, no defense) and won't stop fighting until his legs and/or arms are cut off. The 7 life and lower defense Depicts this greatly.
2. Also look at his picture... HE HAS NO ARMOR ON, how can a man have 14 armor with no armor on, but there is a poor summoner that at least has some bone armor protection thingy underneath her clothes.

Paladin
Comments:
-With the ability to heal and lowered damage overall, this change is also a great change .


Overall:

These changes just seem "too much". Yes less offense was needed, but with only a few units losing only 1 defense in return, It feels like games are going to take a lot longer than before. And in your first few comments "Too Defensive- entire turns would pass with every attack blocked (I find this especially evident in games littered with high Defense units like Warriors and Paladins)"  This game will be even more defensive. Not defensive in less damage per attack, but less damage a turn. And with sprinting and hiding waiting for heal cards, games will take much much longer against equal skilled players. (And some games I have had with Vinman lasted up to 40 minutes, unless one of us Spiked each other immediately)

Also, a few units have Flipped to opposite spectrums of the usefulness Table: Mainly teh Reaver. Taunt isn't very useful, Duel was amazing. *Not only to catch heros in an akward position* But also, most people unless they have a cripple or buff, wouldn't attack a Reaver. So dueling it, ment that unit would sometimes not even attack her that turn.

Only advantage I see with this change is, if I was to buff her Def to 20, have her sprint to a Hero (lets say a Sorceress who has 2/6 HP) and force her to attack me with 2 dice, meaning I get 1 free attack after a sprint because of counter, unless Im really unlucky.


You also say its fine if a lot of damage comes from pummeling (Many units on the same opposing unit), but not outright spells. What could be done, is weaken the spells only a little, not as much as they are now. Also increase HP a few points keep the defenses low, and than add in the mechanic DnD uses. +X to your rolls if any more of your units are around the same one. (aka flanking). Lets say, +3 per other unit.

Also what I don't understand with the cripple change, Old cripple is -4 defense, which would bring most units to 11. Which is the minimum allowed, and now that the bard requires dice to at least be 11, These spells wouldn't be able to be combo'ed.  This was the only time cripple took a huge bite out of units HP.

These are just some of my thoughts.

-Diesbudt

I guess to sum up what I think of the changes:

-In a duel, it now seems first to lose a unit, since offense was lowered, will be at a major disadvantage. unlike now, if both my guardians die with my opponent at full power, I can still win. That will be impossible without extreme luck now.

-The overall card changes I think work well in FFA, though I feel duels will be way more defensive now, relying more on luck than strategy.

-An Idea I thought about this morning between classes, to offset psionists nerfs: have her have 0 STR. but her mind blast ability becomes free, and does 4 dice at 15 def. This will be fair because A) her low def and STR, unless desperate, she will rarly participate in melee combat. B) Also unlike the rogue, her ability can't be affected by buffs/opponents debuffs. I think this would be a fair offset to her only ability being. C) also, since the higher mana costs, means less cards drawn per turn unless you spend every other or 3 turn doing no spells, she doesn't have the luxury to attack by discarding a card.

(If I think of more to add I will)

Excellent feedback, diesbudt!  I was hoping to discuss these changes with the community prior to the update, and you’ve provided some very good points to consider.  Here are my thoughts on what you’ve said:

Destruction
Perhaps the -1 dice to the ice spells was a bit harsh (especially for Blizzard).  My thinking was to balance it more with the increased Meteor Shower's 4 dice for 3 mana vs. Blizzard 3 dice with stun for three mana.  Your exact damage of 1 idea sounds like a possible compromise, but I wonder if this makes the spells verbiage too complex - also- it seems to make Ice Shards more effective than Sleep.  What about - "If at least 2 dice hit, target unit is stunned"?  This lends the spell more towards damage with the possibility of stun on a good roll.

Summon
I was surprised you had nothing to say about the new summon rule- Thoughts?

Manipulation
Hmm... I did go back and forth on the Gateway/Crumble tweaks alot.  Originally, Crumble was going to cost 2- the reason for the increase was to make it particularly valuable to the Wizard- though, I suppose with the other mana increases, it would be safe to lower these.  How about 1 mana for Gateway and 2 for Crumble?

Augmentation
I have to admit I was surprised you didn’t like Hex.  For only 1 mana, you can permanently reduce an enemy’s Defense.  Depending on the initial Defense of the unit, this can have the same statistical effect as reducing the unit’s Life by 1 or more.  Also consider it when cast by high level Fighter Mage.  Since the effect is permanent, it can also be utilized by teammates, unlike Cripple.  The reason for the Sunder Armor card was to give the Cripple spell a more evident weakness- I wanted it there as a way to deal with pesky high armor units and to act as a counter to the increased Defense buffs now in the deck.  Also, I should have mentioned I’m removing the Defense cap of 11 (this rule was in place as the old safe guard, but the newer requirement of targets with min Defense 15 eliminates the need for it).

Recovery
The problem with Mana Surge was that it had no strategic weakness- since you paid nothing for it and got 2 mana, you ultimately earn 1 free card for nothing.  With the change, you’re paying 1 card (the mana surge itself) and basically converting it to 1 mana (resulting in a net change of 0 cards).  However, you’ve got a point about the 1 mana being somewhat insubstantial (in light of increased mana costs).  Maybe another idea would be: Mana Surge (0): Generate 2 mana now, but only generate 1 mana at the start of your next turn.  This would allow for fun gambits like Teleport + whatever, but leave you more vulnerable if your attack fails.

Summoner
Did you catch that she can now summon up to 5 skeletons at once?

Sorceress
Yes, she still has her lightning bolt.  I only wrote down abilities have changed (in case of Summoner, both her abilities and their order changed, so I included them all).  And, point taken about the 15 Valor ability.  It does require a fairly good hand to pull off her winning finishing move (a couple demonic lashes, maybe couple lightning bolts and ice shards, etc.).  I tossed scenarios in my head around quite a bit, feeling that the reduced mana cost would be too powerful with the right hand combinations, hence the reason for the Defense penalty (I wanted to add strong sense of risk).  Perhaps there is a better way to do it without making her ultimate so card dependent.  A simple adjustment could be to put her abilities back in original order, and simply make Natures Wraith (10 Valor) without Defense penalty.  Ideas welcome…

Fighter Mage
Yes, part of my intent with the changes was to make spells more useful to their respective casters.  One shouldn’t disregard Demonic Lash, however.  A virtually guaranteed 2 damage ranged attack has some advantages over +2 strength buff.  It all depends on your setup- if you can use it to eliminate an enemy in a single turn, more power to the destruction spells.

Soul Reaver
I can see how her new ability might disappoint you given your previous tactics.  Yet, I urge you to look deeper at the implications.  The player commanding the Soul Reaver now has a means to leverage a very powerful Strength 4 attack from her for a mere 1 card.  Since you control how to use this ability, you can make easy gambles against skeletons or other low Strength heroes (like Wizards for instance) who will probably miss their attack and receive an additional pummeling from Soul Reaver.  Or, put a Shield on her, and Taunt something bigger.  There’s also the Defensive aspect to consider.  You can have the Soul Reaver taunt a Samurai or Barbarian approaching your mage, and while she might suffer some damage, she stops them from being able to attack your mage next turn.  And- if you can’t attack, you can’t sprint.  So, while she can’t fully pin a unit, she can still prevent them from running out of your movement reach for next turn.  Still find her unworthy of joining your team?

Bard
Funny that you should find the 2 card cost too much, I had long considered making it 3.  With any guardian ability, you’re getting an exceptional deal in comparison to casting a spell.  Every spell cast with mana actually costs (in terms of total cards lost) whatever the mana was plus 1 (because you also lose the card that you cast).  So, another way to think of her power is Battle Horn for 1 mana but with only +1 strength.  Even without team mates, this power rocks with the right setup.  Think of a Summoner commanding her 5 skeletons, an iron golem on your team- or a Soul Reaver, Warrior, or Samurai- and how much a mere +1 to strength benefits their attack.  I was actually concerned the fact you could use it every turn made it too good, but suggestions for alternate powers are welcome.

Psionist
Ok, I’m willing to leverage my changes with her a bit (she is my favorite, after all…).  For starters, her Defense can remain 13 to give her a little extra protection- and I’m willing to abolish the sprint change to the Mind Control.  So, all she’s losing is 30% on her Mind Control to work, making it still a potent ability with only a minor gambit.  Sound fair?

Overall:
I realize many of the changes might seem extreme, but know that a great deal of thought went into considering how each change would affect the game overall.  In some cases, like the Soul Reaver, major stat reductions were necessary to keep units from being too good right off the bat.  With the right enchantments and combos of characters, many of these weaknesses are converted into strengths.  I felt many characters and spells were simply too good before (they had no apparent weaknesses); I want to move away from this because weaknesses are part of what makes strategy games fun.  Part of the problem solving should be “how can I compensate for this weakness- or how can I exploit my opponent’s weakness?”

first off i'm excited to see the list of new changes. (this will keep me from contantly bombarding dies with class changing questions..ha)

i like the change of the gateway spell. the new crumble spell i like as well this will go well with the new gateway spell. i don't think gateway's cost should have been increased since you sort of solved the bombardment problem with weakening a lot of the destruction mafic spells. also if it was at 1 mana it would at least make it possible for the wizard to use crumble and gateway in the same turn and use a weaker destruction spell.

i like that you added more augmentation spells to offset the lost in str and def for certain units. I'm kind of bumbed out on decrease in mana surge especially since most spells that did damage now cost more mana or you have to cast more of them to equal the same amount.
I like the revive spell. this makes it alot more useful. i don't know if i've even used that spell for that reason since most of the time they would die before i could help them.       The summoner change was a briliient idea. this allows the summon to be the massive army maker that you think she should be.  (also getting that +1str and +1 def was devesating at 10 valor) anyway i'm writing this in class and i have to stop i'll finish it later lol

Destruction
-I like the 2 Dice have to hit stun on Ice shards. That would definitely work.
-In many games, a blizzard/meteor shower won't hit more than 3-4 people in a 4-way ffa, unless you risk putting your hero into the middle of the board. So the 2 dice was just too low, I realize your trying to equate it to Meteor shower change, but here is a problem (as I am sure Ill address in a bit) The Sorc. new 15 valor ability. Meteor shower for 3 mana isn't worth it to the other mages in most situations. But dropping it back to 2 with the sorceress's new ability, makes it too powerful at 15 valor for her. (As you can see I do not like her new 15 valor ability) and neither do my brother or a friend who play this that love the sorc. She would now be considered last in my opinion of usability in HM (Used to be summoner's spot.)

Summon
-I wanted to think on the summon rule change. First, that is a nice way to reduce the crystal golems and iron golems effects quickly, but on the problem side, Is summoning really worth it, if it will probably die without being used (Wasted mana) if I don't, now treat it like a real unit.
-2 side notes
1) New Earth elemental is a waste, only 2 characters have higher than 15 defense, so his new ability is extremely situational at best and has been severly demoted on the usefulness list. (Shields don't grow on trees)
2) The dual skeleton summon. for 2 mana, not being able to attack on summon means this card has only 2 real uses: ("picking on me rule" for valor in 2v2/FFA by summoning 1 skeleton by 2 different opponents) and (Block peoples path as I run. They cant stand up to any damage, and unless a summoner, they are a waste for 2 mana with that rule change.  Otherwise I am still in debate with myself on this, as I think this one will have to be throughly tested by myself, and others near my level of play.

Manipulation
-Yes with the increase in destruction mana cost, a 1/2 mana cost for gate/Crumble would work. This way mages would have 1 mana to play with in an assault through a defensive setup.

Augumentation
-Hex: I very rarly miss the damage i need to do by 1 armor (5% more chance to hit per dice), and reducing 1 armor, this card would be better used to "cycle" the deck for a better card.
-"New cripple": I see, but with only 1 card in the deck, and a 17 def warrior running loose, it will take some time to destroy him.

Restoration
-Mana surge: I really like the idea you just proposed. This would mean, you can try an all out assault of 5 mana again (which is already a bit weakened by increased mana costs), and if you fail, you will be hurting next turn and have to "recharge"  [I think this would be a great and fun idea]

Summoner
-She can!?!? holy... wow didn't catch that.

Sorceress
-I don't mind the order of her valor abilities. I just realize her "comet shower" (Cant call it meteor as its 3 dice instead of 4) which costs 2 cards for 3 dice, which compared to a free lightning bolt, this would be a "If i have a full hand of useless cards, ill discard 2 to play 'meteor comet'".
-And the 15 valor ability, yes with the increased mana cost, without a mana surge, it just isn't strong, and it even has a bad effect. (I really don't know a good change, but with the changes you have described, I see Healing and augumentations spells being the new top spell classes to use, over what used to be summons and destruction)

Soul Reaver
-Actually yes, I still don't find her worthy. Wasting 1 card to cause someone to attack her (And with her lowered defense odds are hit, its a wasted gamble unless combo'ed with a few certain cards.) Also I would not in a million years taunt a sami, as if he hits, she will die the next turn. (Since all the opponent needs to do is 1 damage + eviscerate). Yes it protects the hero, but with increased mana costs, guardians are now 2-3x more important, and having 1 dead on a too risky gamble can mean an easy win for your opponent.

Bard
-Most the time, the 2 cards you will need to discard would have been more useful as +1 STR (lets say you have all 3 units alive +2 summons)  5 Strength will not make or break a game unless the rolls are on your side. I have a very hard time ever considering using an ability that costs 2 cards. I rarly use Sorcs Meteor shower, or Fighter mages Dragon fury. And only if I am attempting my spike combo, the sami never eviscerates. (Its another one of those, "well i am going to throw 2 cards away for new cards, might as well gain a benefit from it")

Psionist
-I still do not find it fair. Just because she has no offense. 2 Str with 13 Def is just wrong. She is not ment to attack based on those stats. And Mind blast? That ability more or less isn't very good for 1 card, as it buffs 6 Units Def to 14 for 3 dice that cannot be affected by augumentations. So basically her only "real" attack costs a card, while others don't. A rogue (most similar she is too) can have his attack modified and opponents def modified for the attack, and even has that extra 3 dice if they reach 1 hp.  I just have never ever seen the psionist as an attacking unit. (It would be like making the bards 1 card song ability have a 30% chance to fail also)

Overall: I just see this as such a huge change, too many won't want to come back trying to relearn the more strategic parts of the game. And with so many changes at once, they could combine to create unbalanced match-ups  WHICH...

I have already figured at least a few new strats that will probably be as effective and powerful as my retired "duel" setup that only lost 10 ranked duels?  And I retired that setup because it was too boring to 1 shot a mage and instantly win the games.

As much as it pains me, I agree with my brother on most parts.

-The sorceress now seems kinda useless to me. I loved her old 10 valor ability, it was probably one of the only reasons I keep winning with her. Also her new 15 valor ability to me seems pretty bad for being her top ability. She needs cheap destruction spells but not at the cost of losing a game. I don't know, maybe make it an optional ability or make it so she can only lose two defense at most from the ability.

-Also I agree with Ross, these new changes will most likely make it more interesting in FFA, but can you tell when was the last time you popped on and saw more than one person who wanted to play? Usually you can only get duels now. Recently I just have to play my brother over and over because nobody is on...... with an exception there seems to be more people coming on as of late, but like my brother said all these changes might scare some new people away.

-And last I would just like to thank you for not changing my rouge, I don't think I could play anymore if you did. The Order of The Rouge thanks you kindly.

diesburgz

Ok i thought about it... Sorc.s New 15 valor ability is way too situational.

What if I had the hand:  Lightning boltx2, Ice shardsx2, Demonic Lashx2, seeker missle

She gets 24 dice + 2 Demonic Lashes.

Maybe the ability is too... out of sync? Horrible for her signature AoE spells, but ungodly with a great single target hand.

aside from what i said before. The higher mana cost bothers me more than the weakening of the actual spells. I just fear that it puts to much emphasis on the guardians. While this might increase the tactical aspects in some areas it kinda of screws you in FFA. for example the other night i was in a 3 man FFA and one person is bound to get ganged up on a little bit more and lose his guardian(s) before the other two lose even 1 of theirs. One of the things that i like was that as long as you still had your mage you could still have a good chance of winning as long as you played your cards right and got lucky. With this newer system it seems like your chances of winning in a situation like this has been greatly decreased.

don't get me wrong i like alot of the changes i just don't want to see the person(s) who get ganged up on in an FFA not be able to do anything once their guardian is gone.

ps i haven't bought the summoner set yet but her new changes have me dying to try her out.

This is all great feedback!  I'm glad to have encouraged some exictement and concerns.

The sorceress, in particular, needs some more thought I can see.  Other aspects will be hard to fully judge until this system is tested- it is a lot of changes all at once (but necessarily so to make the adjustments fit within the new framework).  I'd love to hear some more feedback and ideas before I implement anything in the game.

What do you think needs to happen to push the game towards the ideal balance?  How can the heroes be adjusted so they all have equal chance of success if played well?

Would anyone like a "beta" release to test some of these changes before full implementation?

Regarding the new summon rule- the change will substantially change the strategy/tactics of summons.  To your point, diesbudt, about wasting mana on creatures- yes, you take that risk if you tactically insert them right next to the enemy.  To avoid this situation, you place them far enough away from the enemy that they are out of range, but can move in and attack on their next turn.

This tactical change agrees with IGF feedback of "no chance to react" since creatures are no longer appearing out of nothing and attacking.  They have to be positioned first (giving your opponent a chance to retreat or engage).

It might also be helpful to new players, many of which I found in demo games didn't find it apparent that creatures were "living missiles" that could attack the first turn, and so were placing them away from enemies such to protect key areas of the board.

Again, this is probably something we'll need to try in a few games to test the feel.

To Glen's point about mana cost vs. damage, what about tweaking the Destruction along these lines instead:

Fireball- keep at 2 mana, decrease dice to 4
Meteor Shower- keep at 2 mana, decrease dice to 3 (still nice for Valor and eliminating summon hordes)
Seeker Missile - keep at 1 mana, decrease dice to 4
x2 Meteor Shower in deck instead of x2 Demonic Lash (that card is too evil to have 2...)

Then... Sorceress could get:
Lightning at 5 Valor for 0 card
Fireball at 10 Valor for 2 card (ends up being 1 mana cheaper than regular fireball, but no added buffs)
Natures Wraith at 15 - Any units hit by Sorceress's Destruction spells lose an additional life.  (Similar to old ability, but this extra damage CAN exceed the number of dice rolled- I really want to eliminate the old Damage Bonus rule....it's confusing to new players)

Also, with the other Mage's spell-school specific abilities now being 15 Valor abilities, I think the Augment Superior should maybe be as well.  I always feared the Fighter Mage getting that Dragon's Fury (he was almost invincible at 18 Defense a turn), but now he might need it earlier to make up for his lower initial Defense of 14.

Ross I really like the changes in your last post. That seems really good for toning some of the spells down while still making them worth playing, well in my opinion. Also as a player who mainly plays sorceress, I like the new set up you presented.

Also I wouldn't mind testing a "beta" before the changes are permanent.

Well, i like the ideas coming out for the changes, but a huge problem I still foresee, is because of the sorceresses start of game +1 dice, seeker missile is still a 5 dice nuke for 1 mana to her. And with the lowering defenses, (On average SM will hit for 2 on heros), she still has 2 mana to play with. (We are back to possible nuking of heros in 1 turn)

On that Note, I propose keeping Fireball at 3 mana for 5 dice (I like the idea of fireball being a big long distance nuke, and this way a player cant Gateway and fireball OR follow up with an ice shards or something, with no extra mana help).

Also seeker missile, its ability to go around corners (up to 8 spaces) if it becomes 1 mana Id rather see it at 3 dice, and 4 dice if 2 mana.

Meteor shower, I am not a huge fan of aoe attacks that only throw 3 dice. But at the moment I do not have any ideas on how to fix this.

I just find the sorceress having +1 dice and +1 damage to spells would be overwhelming in a game we are trying to reduce the spike damage for.

And the Fm get Dragons fury early? The problem Im seeing now, is if this is to help his defense to combat say  healing by summoner and massive damage from sorc, what is the wizard going to do? With sleep now "on chance" he has less "escape" abilities, especially being at 12 def.

I also agree, we do not need 2 demonic lashes.

Also with a +1 damage that can exceed strength, what would that mean for Disentigrate and Demonic Lash? Do they still do "exact" damage, or will they get +1. Meaning 1 out of 5 dice hits with Disentigrate, it does 5 damage. (Since sorc gets +1 dice.

I personally just think, everything can be helped if:
-you raise the HP of all the heroes by 2.
-Fireball stays 3 mana 5 dice
-Meteor shower Stays 2 mana 4 dice (Cannot be modified by sorcs ability???)
-Seeker Missile 1 mana 3 dice Can now be used up to 10 spaces (Have 2 in deck, 1 replaces the other Demonic lash)
-Demonic Lash 2 mana 3 dice (Exact damage 2, cannot be modified by damage from sorc.)
-Disentigrate 3 mana 4 dice (exact damage 4, cannot be modified by damage from sorc.)


Yes I threw a lot of ideas out there.

Summary:    I just don't know if a sorc. can have +1 dice and +1 damage if your trying to scale back single target damage so its no instant kills.

I think we are jumping between a Sorc who isnt up to par, and a sorc who would be the most deadly hero in the game. (She already has a free 5 valor lightning, making her the most powerful damager (5 Strength, 3 from Lb, 2 from attack),

Also, how are the changes going to affect the new unit(s) you have planned? will they have to be reworked now?

Good points, diesbudt, but I think I’m feeling ok with the Sorceress’s +1 Dice and +1 Damage.  She’s meant to leverage a lot of power from Destruction- and the +1 Damage doesn’t happen until you have 15 Valor which means you can see it coming and attempt to stop it by eliminating the Sorceress or reducing her Valor accumulation with proper positioning.  I disagree with restricting which cards her +1 Damage works with (its overcomplicated and unfair with other heroes whose abilities work with all spells in school).

Also, while she is technically the strongest damager at 5 (with the free lightning) this only occurs if she’s putting herself in melee, which, in most cases, she will not survive long.  Her 2 Strength attack should really be viewed as a Defensive or finishing strike.  Still, maybe her Lightning spell should cost a card (seeing as Summoner skeletons can no longer attack immediately)?  If so, I feel she’d favor better off with something that could attack a single visible unit (vs. having to be on a linear path as with lightning bolt).

Likewise, with the Psionist… I know you feel she seems too weak, but again, she’s another unit I don’t intend players to use in melee (her attack should be rarely used and only in desperate situations).  You raise a good point about the 14’s or better on Psychic Blast, though.  With the reduced Defense, this should be 13’s or better to keep the same effect.  Personally, I’d still take her over the Rogue, even with the chance of fail on Mind Control (which I’m considering reducing the penalty to 20% or 25% vs. 30%).

I think the 3 dice meteor shower is still pretty huge (especially with reduced Defenses where you’re more likely to damage).  It’s also good for quickly accumulating Valor (especially in free for all).  The range of Seeker Missile limits its nuking factor.  The closer you bring Sorceress to units, the greater the risk on her life.  A reduction to 3 dice is not a bad idea, though.  What do others think?

Regarding Wizard- dare I suggest giving his Meditate at 10 Valor?  This might be too good.  The better option, I feel, might be to exemplify his strength with Manipulation over other mages.  Hence, I’m leaning back towards 2 mana on Gateway.  Read the new card text again to see how this differs from original meaning:

Remove a wall from any space on the board.  Return the wall at the end of the first turn its space is unoccupied.

It can now be used as an escape spell or as a permanent opening depending on how you play.  I agree, we don’t want players removing walls and fireballing first turn (this was not the intent, at least for non-Wizards).  I’ll reduce the failure rate for Sleep to match Psionist Mind control.

Also, I think Mana Surge is useful again at 1 mana with Destruction update (this gives you enough to teleport and fireball for Sorceress, teleport and Disintegrate for Wizard, or teleport + attack + seeker missile for Fighter Mage).

I’m very hesitant to increase unit life cap.  This was one of the possibilities I tested before I posted these changes; it drastically throws off the entire game balance.

Let the discussion continue, this is generating many good ideas!

With seeker missile, I suggested 3 dice because (if you still plan reverting ice shards to 3) it would be on par.  1 mana for 3 dice + special (can go around los objects). And yes, with summoner not being able to attack with skeletons right away a 1 card discard is what I was going to suggest (especially now since l.bolt costs 1 mana).

I wasn't wanting wizards valor abilities to switch, I was more thinking equalize his def with sorc and summoner at 13.

also hex, maybe this would be cooler as a -1 strength permently? I still am not a fan or +1 and -1 armor spells (at 10 valor, with +2/-2 I agree its nice).

I just don't want to see +1 damage from sorcs ability abused on disentigrate:  5 dice and if only 1 hits a unit takes 5 damage... 3 units will die to 5 damage with the rest only 1 damage away.) and with lower def... 1 dice will almost definitly hit.

Also I like the 4 dice fireball for 2 discards better than meteor 'sprinkle'

(i propose you to rename it meteor sprinkle since its at 3 dice).

What about what I said about the earth elemental earlier? since only 2 units have above 15 def. his new ability seems kind of underpowered except vs shield, which I think just more dispells would be better

And yes, changing psis MC to 25percent and Mind blast to 13 def. would satisfy me. .

wait, does this gateway mean a unit can stand on that spot now? So it is actually a weaker spell now?

I found the gimmick where a unit could not stand on that spot useful once in a while when needing to get away from melee units.

I’m liking the concept of 1 mana for 3 dice + special.

What about:
x2 Ice Shards (1): Roll 3 attack dice, stuns if at least 1 dice hits (alternatively if 2 dice hits)
x2 Lightning Bolt (1): Roll 3 attack dice on target unit and units in between on same linear path
x2 Seeker Missile (1): Roll 3 attack dice against target unit up to 8 spaces away
x2 Fireball (2): Roll 4 attack dice against target unit and all units surrounding target.
x1 Disintegrate (3): Roll 3 attack dice against adjacent unit.  If any dice hit, unit loses exactly 4 life.
x1 Demonic Lash(2): Roll 3 attack dice against target unit.  If any dice hit, unit loess exactly 2 life.
x1 Meteor Shower(2): Roll 3 attack dice against all visible enemies.
x1 Blizzard(3): Roll 3 attack dice against all visible enemies, stuns if at least 1 dice hits.

The one dice reduction in Disintegrate makes it a harder gamble.  The Sorceress will still do 5 damage if she hits, however, she’ll need to be adjacent to the unit and won’t be able to combo with Teleport like the Wizard can.  So, the caveat is- “Don’t get in melee range of a 15 valor Sorceress who could have Disintegrate unless you can defeat her.”

The sorceress’s 5 Valor Lightning will now cost 1 card (which, again, is still cheaper than casting lightning bolt since you’re not discarding a spell + paying mana).

Summoner’s Defense has actually been reduced to 12 since her higher skeleton cap now encourages her to hide and let her minions do her dirty work.  I’d be willing to adjust the Wizard’s Defense to 13 if we discover its needed after play testing (he should have an easier time surviving than before even at 12 since he doesn’t have to worry as much about being pegged by Destruction spells and Summons).

You raise a good point about Earth Elemental.  What if dice rolls of 13 or better are converted to 20s?  The concept is that he’s crushing you between his boulder-like hands.  Medieval armor is good at deflecting blade attacks but is vulnerable to strong blunt attacks (when the armor is bent/cracked, it actually has a better chance of wounding its wearer).

For Gateway- yes, this change would entail a unit could stand on this space.  The reason for the change is in response to new players’ confusion as to what gateway does.  Originally, I wanted it to have some tactical purpose, even if there were no walls around (to block melee units, i.e. the gimmick you mentioned).  In the newer version, the gateway closes at the end of your turn if you don’t have a unit standing on it.  Therefore, a Wizard who’s trapped in a room could open gateway, walk through the opening, and let it close- making it impossible for his pursuers to follow the same route.  Or, you could open a wall, stick a heavy defense unit in there, and use that open wall to repeatedly fire at enemies on the other side.

One problem with my proposed idea is that the Gateway effect is currently tied to the caster (you can actually dispel gateway if you cast Dispel Magic on the caster).  I’d have to remove this feature with the changed version; otherwise you could trap units in walls.  Maybe it’d be simpler to just have the gateway always close at the end of the caster’s turn?

I like all the new destruction changes. 2 dice hit for stun (this way it is harder to stun since it can still do damage (unlike sleep, which is just a chance to stun). Otherwise, I concur on these changes of destro spells.

The problem still is, if I put a warrior unit on that spot, and my hero dies on my opponents turn?  what happens to the warrior?

and if it auto closes after your turn, 2 mana would seem too much, for such a small use. Yes it is a 'run away spell' now... but so is teleport which is more effective at same mana cost.

Otherwise, the destruction spell changes, and sorc l.bolt change looks wonderful.

The earth elemental? so basically he is a melee psionist mind blast right? since his X+ rolls equal 20 and psi's mind blast reduce targets def. to X.

Wait, since summons cannot attack first turn now (besides air), would it be an idea to remove the passive ability 'short attack' from the smaller golems and skeletons?

If you had a Warrior on the gateway and your mage died, the gateway would still remain since the condition of the spell is "until the end of a turn the space is unoccupied". 

Having thought about it some more, however- I think I'd rather try out just having the gateway close automatically at end of turn (cannot end move on gateway space) as this will be a much easier change to make.  Plus, it's still vastly different from Teleport because it can also be used offensively.  For instance, a Wizard can cast Gateway for 1 mana and Fireball an entire team- since the Gateway closes at the end of turn, the opponent cannot retaliate (unlike if the Wizard had teleported).  Plus, other units can move through the gateway (teleport only moves your own mage).  Since there's no visibility requirement for Gateway, it can be used to get other friendly units behind walls and into defended areas.  The fact that it closes end of your turn, I feel, makes it immensely more powerful since only you can benefit from its effect (not your opponent).

For 2 mana, it's a very powerful spell, and for only 1 mana for the Wizard, it's exceptional.

I'll agree to 2 dice hit to stun; I plan on tinting stunned units blue as a future interface feature so it's easy to tell when they've been afflicted.

Earth Elemental is actually stronger than the Psionist since he'll still hit lower Defense units at their natural Defense.  The Psionist always checks against 13 regardless of Defense.

I like removing Short Attacks (it simplifies the game overall), but I think we should play test before making that change since it will throw off the balance of the other elementals.

fair enough on the gateway, I guess this would help solidify the wizard being the manipulation master.

I like the blue stunned idea, I know some new players have sat there for 30+ seconds wondering why they can't do anything with x unit.

Also, with the summons cannot attack on turn of summoning. Is it an idea to remove unsummon?  Any other card, you pay mana cost and get its effect. (augu-buffs, destro-attack, resto-heal, and sleep-chance to attack.). But with the summons now waiting a turn, it would be unorthadox to spend 3 mana on a summon creature that is killed by a 1 mana card before it is even used.

(ive decided to bring only 1-2 questions/opinions per post so I don't write an essay each response.)

After reading the changes posted, I have to say that it seems like everything is getting nerfed. The way that MMORPGS and games have had success is making things balanced is through buffing the underused classes or abilities and bringing everyone up to a higher level of awesomeness. Bringing everything down, hindering abilities, making them less die, chance of failure sounds like it would dilute the game experience.

I do agree with the more life and lower defense, that's either a break even or a slight buff to everyone, but taxing spells or character's abilities isn't the way to go. If you kept on this path, then every new character that comes out would have these severe limitations to be 'meh'.

I would boost abilities or characters instead of nerfing. Instead of making spells weaker in abstract, make mages defense versus them better? If mages are getting one-shotted, give them some sort of way to stop that...such as maybe a defensive 5 valor ability. So far the summoner has the only defensive valor ability, and one flesh golem spell in the entire deck. These are just ideas, but I know I would rather play with uber powerful spells/guardians/mages than people who fail 30% of the time or roll over to getting hit with spitballs.

Quote from: diesbudt on February 24, 2010, 09:41:13 PM MT
Also, with the summons cannot attack on turn of summoning. Is it an idea to remove unsummon?  Any other card, you pay mana cost and get its effect. (augu-buffs, destro-attack, resto-heal, and sleep-chance to attack.). But with the summons now waiting a turn, it would be unorthadox to spend 3 mana on a summon creature that is killed by a 1 mana card before it is even used.

A Dispel Magic can wipe out all enchantments on a unit for only 0 magic.  Though, you make a point in that you technically get at least one turn to leverage that attack.  Unsummon is definately more useful now, but I'm not sure it's too powerful- it puts the game back in your favor if your opponent invests in a summon and places them in line of sight.  It's primarily there to level off pesky units like Flesh Golems, Iron Golems, and Crystal Golems.  Summoners will have to be cautious where they place their creatures.

Quote from: diesbudt on February 24, 2010, 09:41:13 PM MT
(ive decided to bring only 1-2 questions/opinions per post so I don't write an essay each response.)

No need to hold back...by all means, speak your mind.

Quote from: Baker on February 24, 2010, 10:12:48 PM MT
After reading the changes posted, I have to say that it seems like everything is getting nerfed. The way that MMORPGS and games have had success is making things balanced is through buffing the underused classes or abilities and bringing everyone up to a higher level of awesomeness.

I can understand why you feel that way.  On first glance, the changes do seem to imply “nerf”, but really the decrease in dice rolled is being offset by the decrease in Defense, resulting in a balance shift rather than a decrease in power.  Also- it’s not the mages getting killed easily that was the problem; but the way damage was being distributed in massive bursts and annihilating any character without the opportunity to react.

It’s difficult to compare Hero Mages to the typical MMORPG.  Our stats system was built to function like a board game with very small numbers meant to be calculated with simple dice rolls.  Most MMORPGs use much larger damage scales and have characters with many hit points (sometimes hundreds or more).  For their system, it’s much easier to increase stats and damage because they can simply add more hit points and armor.  Hero Mages is strictly limited by the twenty sided dice (Defense caps at 20) so in our case it makes sense to shift the system the opposite way.

I’m attuned to your point though- players want to feel things are “better and more awesome” and not “everything is weaker”.  That’s why the Summoner is getting the ability to conjure up a horde of skeletons vs. only 1 at a time, the Fighter Mage is getting more augmentation spells, the Wizard is getting new manipulation spells, and other characters are getting new or revamped abilities.

Maybe make unsummon cost no mana (merge it with dispell, have 2 in deck) and instead of killing a summoned unit, it kills a summoned unit at 1 hp. meaning skeletons and iron golems are vulnerable, but the others require a little fight done first, that way even if they don't get a chance to attack, it diverted some dice/attacks to them.

Also... soul reavers taunt. I still cringe at such a huge change. losing both an hp and def. maybe add another effect on taunt  (the opposing unit's attack rolls below 20 get -2 to the roll, as if taunted a person would attack more in anger than in skill).

Not sure about Unsummon yet.  But, I am pretty excited about Soul Reaver!  It still amazes me that you're not liking her... 4 dice attack, 15 Defense (which is exceptional coupled with her nice attack).  I love the fun that can be had with Taunt vs. Duel, and it adds so much more to her personality.

Your idea about the added Taunt effect is interesting, but it'd be simpler to either raise her Defense or her Life by 1.  According to the Battle Simulator, the effect of making either change gives her an equal increase in her chance of winning the battle.  She does slightly more damage per turn with the increased Defense, however, as expected by the increased frequency of counter attack.

well I suggested the -2 attack because 15 defense, most attacks that use 3+ dice has a better chance to hit than not hit. So to actually get me to want to waste a card to have her get a unit to attack her that might attack her next turn anyways at no discard...something more is needed.   +1 defense would be perma and affect all attacks (im just wanting it to affect the taunt attack).  (and I did check to see 1 def is equivalent to -2 on the dice.)

Like I said, I just don't like discarding a card for absolutly no reason. I don't usually plan  my hero to be near enough to most units for them to reach him, so the only targets my opponents guardians will usually hit is the soul reaver, or other unit, which if I was afraid to lose it, it also would be distance away from the guardians.

So all I see this ability as, is a sprint luck attack. Which, isn't a smart move to sprint 1 unit into your opponents' clutches.  (basically as I said, I'd basically be discarding a card for something that will happen next turn, and if he buffs his unit's attack to attack the reaver, that's less 'ammo/mana' my opponent has to aim at my hero that turn.

I just don't like it, unless it gets something more.

Let's not forget, taunting a rogue is useless.

Quote from: diesbudt on February 25, 2010, 01:21:37 AM MT
Let's not forget, taunting a rogue is useless.

Not so.  Say your opponent was down to their Rogue and you had a Mage left with only 2 life, Taunt could easily win you the game by redirecting that ranged attack, saving your Mage to cast spells another turn.

After more deliberation, I've decided to keep Soul Reaver's Defense at 16 and reduce her life to 5.  This lends more to her Counter Strike ability, but leaves her susceptible to Defense banes, Inspire, Earth Elemental, and high damage Destruction spells.  Additionally, she has a natural weakness against the Rogue (make sure to turn off her counter strike in the Battle Simulator when fighting the Rogue to see the difference it makes).

Since the def of most units changed. Maybe the warriors protect should become a -3/+3 now instead?

Quote from: diesbudt on February 26, 2010, 11:05:38 PM MT
Since the def of most units changed. Maybe the warriors protect should become a -3/+3 now instead?

Since the Warrior's Defense is remaining at 17, the -4 won't be hurting him any more than before (assuming you don't also attack with him).  Also, the +4 is already balanced by the overall decreased Defense.  Remember from your findings in the Battle Simulator that extra Defense becomes more valuable at high values.

Ok, I'm just about done getting these changes implemented in the next version- did anyone else have any comments/suggestions? 

With the exception of possibility the summon rule change, I don't think the balance changes will aversely affect anyone's gameplay experience, so I'll probably post them at the end of next week as v1.3.  I'll be happy to make any necessary tweaks you guys feel are needed after playing.

I did a brief test run of the new balance changes with my Friday night game group and wanted to share some of our initial impressions:

• The added visual ques for stunned and immobilized units were a very welcome addition (units that are stunned are tinted blue and immobilized units are tinted purple so they’re very easy to pick out on the battlefield)
• The Soul Reaver’s Taunt ability was very well received by all- the added fun factor of being able to direct opponents’ attacks (and the occasional blunder when it resulted in her untimely death) added much laughter and epic fights to the game
• Balance changes on the Samurai did not seem to hinder his strength at all; he became slightly more susceptible to attacks, but this was easily fixed with Defense enchantments.  The added bonus of being able to Eviscerate whenever he wanted resulted in satisfying game moments.  One friend of mine in particular took exceptional delight in cranking up his speakers whenever he eviscerated one of us.
• Demonic Lash, Fireball, and overall Destruction spell changes seemed to work favorably with the lowered Defense values.  Destruction spells were effective, but not capable of one-shotting Heroes in a single turn without guardian attack support.
• Lots of groans on the nerfing factor- particular spells, like Lightning Bolt, just didn’t feel substantial enough to merit spending a card on
• The Summoner's new power, while really cool in concept, did not play out well at as well in the game.  It took too long to create a mob of skeletons (at only 1 skeleton per turn), and the inability of the skeletons to attack immediately resulted in the creation of units that would often get hacked by a barbarian or blasted by a spell before they had a chance to do anything.
• The new summoning rule, in particular, was perhaps the most frustrating and unwelcome change.  There were so many times we’d draw awesome summon cards- Earth Elemental, Iron Golem, Crystal Golem, and then realize…oh wait..he can’t attack right away...that won’t help my situation.  I tried to rectify the problem by allowing certain summon spells to allow immediate attacks (skeleton warriors, fire elemental), but this only added confusion to the game.  Having tried the new rule, we all agreed that we much prefer the simplicity of “all summons can attack immediately”.
• Ultimately, the extra Augmentation Spells appeared to be the greatest source of power within the game. In our 3 test games (1 FFA and 2 team games), victory favored buffed Barbarians, Samurais, and Soul Reavers delivering the beat down.
• Adding the additional spells to the deck greatly altered the flow of gameplay; perhaps I’m used to expecting certain cards emerging at critical game moments, but it was frustrating getting extra copies of Earth Elementals and Lightning Bolts in situations where I couldn’t make use of them.  This leaves me thinking that the increased spell instances may be an unwise change.

Overall, I feel like these changes will need some more work before they are ready for implementation.  To Baker’s point, I don’t want to launch changes with intentions to renew player excitement that instead leave you feeling like your favorite abilities just got weaker.

I welcome more feedback from our players.  In particular- what elements about the game do you really enjoy, and what elements do you find lacking and in need of improvement?

As much as I thought the summon change change might work; in the back of my mind I almost knew that change was going to burn up. Just because like you said, first few turns, sure setting up an army its fine, but late game when you need damage now or healing now and not next turn, so they become discard fodder.

I do agree, just recently when not busy with school, i realized you unbalanced the "flow" of magic in your most recent change post giving many more spells in it.

I still say the sorcs 1 card lightning bolt is needed, with all the changes you made to destro spells, a free lightning to any hero is quite powerful. The card however... I can agree, I don't know when ill ever spend 1 mana on a 3 dice spell card that requires a up, down, left, right or diagonal. {Maybe make it in all "basic" (up, down, left, right and diabonals) directions at once on the card version of it?}

You say the defense enchantments on the samurai was powerful, remember before that change the samurai became even more invulnerable (17 def like a paladin/warrior).  {Maybe the + defense card should just be removed entirely?}

Also, did no one try buffing a warrior for a beat down? since they do "double dip" the enchant?

At the moment i have no other input with my mind currently elsewhere.

Another idea I'd come up with when working with the Summon balancing was to restrict the casting range rather than the summon's abilities. 

What if all summons could move and attack immediately?  And, instead of being able to place summons anywhere you can see, you have to place them on a space surrounding your caster?

With this solution, Summon spells would still be useful in those "I need help now!" situations, while Destruction spells would have a range advantage.

That idea would work, itwould reduce the long range and first turn spiking of summons that players (especially me) have abused (which is why all my maps have walls in areas so no player can summon attack a person on the very first turn without trickery/exposure.

Also this means when in the middle of battles that mana can actually be used to fight back and not just 'unusable weak walls' for a turn. this will also make it seem more realistic (standing over the materials you are going to summon) and make it less confusing to some.

So the new question is, what is air elementals new ability gonna have, since his ability is now going to spread to all summons (move n attack on same turn)

I've played a few games with my wife using the revised summon solution, and it has turned out to work really good.  Like you've already said, it resolves the range problem, preventing first turn summon bombardments from across the map.  It also adds a bit more to the creatures getting to create them and then send them marching into battle.

To answer your question, Air Elemental's powers will simply stay the same.  The purpose of giving him the Haste was so that he could take better advantage of his Ethereal ability to move through other units.  With the revised summon change, Ethereal will actually have significant impact since he'll be the only unit able to move past enemies to attack desired targets.

On a different note, I think players are really going to like the Soul Reaver.  In the few games I've played, Taunt has proved itself to be a very formiddable power.  The last game I played, my wife used her to continuously harass my Warrior (rendering him incapable of using his dual attack).  Then, when my guardians were defeated, she Taunted my Fighter Mage to prevent him from attacking her mage on my next turn (this seriously hindered my plans, as I was going to enchant him for a power attack).

I see the advantages of the soul reaver, but I also clearly see the disadvantages she obtained from the ability change.

I guess the one thing that I need to know before I can say she is permanently exiled from my team roster is:

If I taunt a unit, on his turn can he sprint away?

Any unit that is Taunted loses their ability to attack on their next turn.  Since you can't attack, you can't expend your attack to sprint away.  I'm looking forward to seeing her on your team so you can discover for yourself just how amazing her new ability is.

I've adjusted the other changes a bit and I think we're almost ready.  I'll try and do another test run on Friday.  If all goes well, we might have a public release as early as next week.  I'll keep everyone posted!

On my team? unless you program random choice to force her on my team, I won't take her, I found other units I like more.

welp I would like to test the new changes. Being relatively new to the game i like how it is other then the lack of people. After the proof read im pretty unsure. But i dont play with any of the premium decks. So take it for what its worth.  A scrub that likes it as it is. =)

I'm excited to see how the changes we spent practically a week debating on turns out tonight.