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Fighter Mage Abilities

Started by Baker, August 31, 2009, 05:40:05 PM MT

Baker

The way that I see the Fighter Mage right now and with his current abilities, he benefits more from the spells that are not augmentation based. Particularly, manipulation and destruction spells (maybe even summon as well, as they tend to be just as deadly as some destruction spells).

It's fairly easy to get into a position (teleport or flash) to either set up a turn with a high probability to kill an opposing mage with destruction/summons or wound him enough to imprison/sleep/ice shards and set up a kill next turn (provided he isn't also a fighter mage). God help the poor mage if you have a mana surge in there as well.

None of the above are augmentation spells, but in my mind they are the usual MO of the Fighter Mage. What I think would help the situation, without actually hurting the Fighter Mage significantly would be to switch the 0 valor and 10 valor abilities.

Think about how willing you'd be to be to put your Fighter Mage in danger early on in the game if you were just as able to be beat upon, time walked (stunned) and then beat upon again.

I think this would promote a more natural growth of the Fighter Mage over time/valor. Sending in buffed guardians to earn valor, growing into a major physical attack threat. All of the other mages have a 0 valor passive that adds something to their respective magic, and I think that switching the 0 and 10 valor abilities wouldn't unbalance things at all. Personally, I would rather have to face a majorly buffed end game hero than one that can jump a mage and easily live to talk about it right off the bat.


diesbudt

Myself, and a few others talked about this during a game, and We also feel this might be a better change. As he gets immediate benefit from cards (Like all otehr 3 heros do) but earns a more potent 10 valor ability (which in FFA/2v2 can be earned quick, but duel will take some time).

Ross Przybylski

Baker, you have some very good points about the devastating impact of a teleporting Fighter Mage that I also feel need resolution, but I think switching the Fighter Mage’s abilities as you’ve suggested will cause more problems than it will resolve.

Relentless is purposively the Fighter Mage’s first ability because it sets the mood for the character.  Unlike the other Mages, the Fighter Mage is bold and fearless- we want players comfortable with charging him onto the battlefield without the fear of being stunned by enemy magic.  Giving him Superior Augmentation as his first ability would drastically diminish this ideal and likely replace it with the following tactic:


  • Camp at the starting area and sift through the deck for augmentation spells (preferably Archon’s Might, Bloom, and Armor of Aegis)
  • Cast the Superior version’s of these spells on the Fighter Mage
  • Wait for enemy mages to show sign of weakness, then teleport in for an assassination with an immensely more powerful Fighter Mage who hasn’t even earned a single Valor

I feel like the teleport-insta-mage-kill issue is really more of a problem with teleport itself than the Fighter Mage.  In fact, I think it’s more deadly with the Wizard, actually, as he can cast teleport for only 1 mana and Mana Surge himself anytime he wants once he’s reached 15 Valor to combo unspeakable horrors.  A 15 Valor Sorceress can also teleport in and attack, lightning bolt, and meteor shower (plus combo with a more powerful version of a destruction spell).

Here are some other ideas for how we might deal with the issue:


  • Limiting the number of Teleport spells in the deck from 2 to 1 (exchange for Barricade or other manipulation to reduce the occurrence of teleport combos)
  • Requiring the expenditure of your attack in addition to mana cost to teleport
  • Being unable to cast further spells once you’ve teleported (making it more of an “Escape” spell)
  • Increasing the cost of Teleport from to 2 to 3 (making it only viable for combos with the Wizard but still a plausible as an escape option for other mages, albeit costly)
  • Require a minimum Valor be achieved before Teleport can be cast

Finally, for the opposite argument, I’d also like us to consider the consequences of changing teleport too much from its current form.  Though it is certainly possible to land a first turn kill with teleport, it is often extremely risky â€" if you fail your attack, you are at the mercy of an entire party of heroes (it’s also very exciting when you take that risk and succeed).  Also, teleport is a very crucial spell to the game, allowing players to put pressure on otherwise insanely guarded maps (like some of the 2v2’s I’ve seen) and allowing all but defeated players a chance to recover and come back into the game.  One of my common tactics when my mage is all alone but presumably safe and I haven’t seen a teleport used in awhile is actually to cast shield or protect on him in anticipation of such an attack.
Manager of D20Studios, LLC

diesbudt

Well in my opinion do the - take 1 teleport out for imprision (as both can be used offesively and defensivly like teleport). of course this is after the imprision issue is fixed.

Baker

While teleport does need to be addressed, I still believe that the Fighter Mage needs to be addressed as well. If everyone is hurt by the teleport change, the net effect is no balance change really? (well maybe a little since FM abuses it the best).

Note the top mages on the leaderboard, lets see....FM, FM, FM, FM, FM... Something must be tipping the scales in the Fighter Mage's balance?

There's a thread going around about the optimal team being Psionist, Barbarian, Fighter Mage. What do all of these have in common? Ability to manipulate movement (flash/charge/mind control). It doesn't really matter how much damage/strength somoene has if they can't attack before opposition closes distance and wipes the target out. Add the fact that stunning is another method of closing/making distance, and the fighter mage happens to be immune to this as well.

I'd like to ask why people enjoy using the fighter mage over any other mage? Is it the 4Str and 15Def? Unstunnability? What kind of powers on other mages are better than the fighter mages?


Finjinimo

The FM is more mistake forgiving then the other mages.

The higher Defense, the decent attack, and unstunability mean that you can misplace him on the board and survive the next round to run away and heal. Or close for the kill.

You can't do that with the other mages. Any other mage that you use, if you misclick, or place them in a vunerable position, they will get taken out. There is much less margin for error with the summoner, wizard and sorceress.

The FM is certainly the easist to use, and the easist to learn with.

Personally, I find the unstunability the most useful, because it means that no matter what, the FM can always perfom an action on your turn. And I think that is invaluable in a game like this.

Demoyn

Quote from: Baker on September 01, 2009, 07:06:19 PM MT
I'd like to ask why people enjoy using the fighter mage over any other mage? Is it the 4Str and 15Def? Unstunnability? What kind of powers on other mages are better than the fighter mages?



No, it's the $25 that I still have in my pocket.  You know... since we can't all be best friends with the developer and such.

diesbudt

The Fighter mage has mana of Pros.

1)  It is more forgiving keeping him in LoS of opponents (15 defense), and unstunnability.
2) His 4 STR offense makes it so paired with another strong attacker (Warrior, barbarian, Soul Reaver, Samurai) They can produce a deadly two strike combo (+ spells)
3) Also with his flash, he has the ability to catch up to heros running away (You know the Wizard, summoner and sorc)

The main Cons of him however is the fact that unlike summoner (who can do multiple summons who do long distance attacks) or the Sorc (Who can do more damage and free distance damage spells) or the wizard (Who can increase his mana, and switch cards out, and use cheaper cards.) He does have to get into melee range to be full potential. [Which is where the defense comes in.]


And @Demoyn, I have yet to spend any money on this game and have both extra hero packs (1 from code from GenCon, and 1 from winning a contest) So I dont really see where your comment comes into play.


and @Baker, i use the FM for the 4 STR and unstunnability. i could care less about his Def.  (And no I dont run FM, Barb, Psi.)

Baker


No, it's the $25 that I still have in my pocket.  You know... since we can't all be best friends with the developer and such.
[/quote]

I think that I've more than paid for my hero packs with years of purchasing Sparks and Svedka Vodka for testing sessions.

Joshua

Fighter mage is more of a fighter than a mage, so why not make his starting mana "2"? That would balance things out?

diesbudt

Can't Joshua, that would mean a few cards in the deck the FM may not use. Unless yo uwanna change the mana cost on a few cards.  Its just the teleport assault problem (and mainly teleport + spell, as Teleport+attack isnt enough to kill a Hero usually). Maybe I like One of Ross's idea, and after you cast teleport, you cannot cast anymore spells for the rest of the turn (this would also stop Wizard Teleport+blizzard etc.)

Solharan

Quote from: Demoyn on September 03, 2009, 10:00:11 PM MT
No, it's the $25 that I still have in my pocket.  You know... since we can't all be best friends with the developer and such.

I happily paid up for the hero packs. Ross has clearly put a lot of effort in to this game and as soon as I knew I liked the game and was going to be playing it for a while, I bought the pack because he deserves it for creating a great game and I want him to continue to host it and develop it further.

If you just want a free ride, by all means take it, but don't complain you've only got the basic package.

(Disclaimer - I don't know Ross, have never met him or even played a game of Hero Mages with him, I just like the game)

On the subject of the FM, the unstunnability is a definite plus, and combined with his Def, Flash and Dragon's Fury, it makes him a good choice in 1-on-1 games where it's harder to hide your mage.