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Author Topic: Teleport Too Easy a Kill / Getaway and FM Biased  (Read 9563 times)
1EasyGamer

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« on: August 15, 2010, 11:17:30 AM MT »

Teleport Too Easy a Kill / Getaway and FM Biased
So/Su/Ma =  Sorceress/Summoner/Mage

DEFENSIVE:

Teleport its too easy a gateway card. It's very unrealistic to have to work all game with skill approaching and killing the enemy and then have the Hero just puff away to the other end of the map. On the case were both teams are still equal in Heroes it's sort of an unfair “start everything all over again”. In the case were one is left with a Hero and the other is not, it's pretty much hopeless, the Hero would win cause of the extra time allowed to gather more cards and the difficulty on trapping a Hero in the first place. Only a lucky Psionist+OtherGuardian combo would kill it and only if the Hero gets bad cards and the Map allows for easy trapping. In the Getaway scenario I don't think there is a bias towards the FM, any Hero would have an almost insurmountable chance of surviving.

OFFENSIVE:

Having tried playing all Heroes and Guardians combinations it seems to me that the use of Teleport as an offensive quick kill against So/Su/Ma is taking away too much from the tactical and strategical fun part of the game and sort of allowing a “win for dummies”. After a long hard day of work positioning and using your units with skill, bringing the pressure to the enemy you get wiped out on a simple Teleport that there is nothing you can do to stop if you are a So/Su/Ma. It does not take much skill to pump your FM and go for the kill, even easier if the FM its already augmented and/or if you have the extra mana card. On 4+ players games were there might actually be 1+ bards pumping the stats even easier or if another player can Shield you before the jump or protect you afterward. I don't think I have ever seen a game won by an opposing team that was not using FMs and their So/Su/Ma was Teleport attacked. Sure there is a risk from using Teleport but I have never seen it happen yet, people usually use it when they are 1+ Hero ahead in 4+ players games or if they have managed to bring the So/Su/Ma to 4 Def or less or if they can Shield/Imprison/Heal themselves in case of an unsuccessful quick kill. They can also just get away and sprint if nothing else if they have only used spells. An FM would many time survive the retaliation for the Hero kill and then it really is game over for the opposing team. Also there is no much science on preparing for a Teleport, after 5+ rounds usually the player has had enough cards to save a Teleport and at least 1 extra card to combo with. Even without combos you just need a creature that takes a couple of points away from the So/Su/Ma, Teleport and that's it (not so hard in a 4+ players game).

CONCLUSION:

None of this would be such a bad thing if it was a weakness equally shared by all Heroes but it mainly only affects the So/Su/Ma. All Heroes have different strengths that counterbalance each other but I don't feel there is an effective counterbalance for FMs using Teleport.

SUGGESTION:

TELEPORT JUMP LIMIT: Decrease the Teleport jump from infinity to ˝ the Map distance. At least so the player has to have the skill to be closer to the action or having to spend regular movements/sprints and really be stuck on a failed quick kill after having to Teleport and then move for the kill. This would also balance the Getaway case and give a higher chance for a fight to the 2 Guardians against Hero cases which I think would add fun game-play to Hero Mages.

FORCE FIELD spell: Have 2 of them in a deck at a cost of 3 mana. It gives a +4 Def boost to Heroes only not Guardians or Creatures, cannot boost the Hero over 16 Def (if the Hero already has high Def it would not be boosted over 16 after taking all other boosts in consideration). It is permanent unless  the Hero melee attacks or the spell is dispelled (a Sunder Armor will also be affective against it at least for 1 turn). This would mostly favor the So/Su/Ma Heroes cause the FM relies on Melee attacks plus the high cost would make it unsuitable to be abused.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 12:16:03 PM MT by 1EasyGamer » Logged
diesbudt

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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2010, 12:19:57 PM MT »

But than is it fair to have ranged units? since some maps are so open, a melee unit has to spend 3 turns being hit by spells/attacks before he can counter and do anything (If he even lives)  (This includes the FM as he is melee oriented)

And Teleport has 1 major problem with it, if it fails you SHOULD be able to counter. It does take 2 mana.

And if you are worried of a teleport + the perfect hand?  Don't play defense and wait for your opponent to get those cards, push him into a corner so he has no chance to wait for those cards.

Also for a FM to buff and use teleport he is using most of his hand, so this is a all or nothing strategy (you can prevent it) And he cant even get that buff until 15valor (not first turn)

Teleport is fine as it is, it just takes knowledge and understanding how to defend it. (This game is based on luck too, so if he gets real lucky on the teleport attacks, he would have anyways if your hero was left open)

Plus teleport is a good defensive card too, when you need to get away as far as possible. 

(The half range idea just wouldn't work, its not hard to get halfway across the map unscathed usually, so it would just mean more time for them to get better cards as they get closer, Also it would defeat the purpose of being a defensive card)

[force field] And we don't want cards that make a hero almost unkillable. This would make sorcs, wizards, and summoners who almost never melee attack almost unstoppable.  (Plus there is a cheaper version you can use each turn called a warriors protect.)



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Tampit

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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2010, 12:44:31 PM MT »

I have some mixed feelings about this
While its certainly a very powerful card i don't think its overpowering FM
its actually the opposite,FM already has flash so can get to you even without teleport
Sure there is the possibility for him to run away but he will never run cause thats his method of attack
A sorc has 1 lightning and a fireball and with her wrath it can be devastating add another 1 mana destruction and prepare for pain all the while cowering back to her base
Not to mention that wiz would absolutely love this and probability tries to collects all of them
Also shield works for all heroes not just FM
However just knowing there are 2 of them out there just gives me the shivers
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1EasyGamer

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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2010, 12:51:05 PM MT »

diesbudt I understand your argument but I still feel the Teleport its too much of a biased weapon to the FMs. Maybe +4 is a little bit too much for the Force Field, +3 might be more appropriate and a boost of no more than 15 Def max. You would still need lots of luck on the cards to have it just like Teleport and it can be dispelled and it would have a high cost. Buffing the FM takes no work if you have a Bard and if you add all the cheap augmentation that people mostly would use on the FM anyway and waiting 5+ turns in 2v2+ games is no problem if you want that extra kick after Teleport. All in all I feel the Teleport is bias to the FMs.

Maybe it is too early to tell but once the community grows if things stand as they are I think the top 10 players would all be using FMs as their main Hero taking away from the fun in diversity. Maybe a poll could be taken of people's whose Heroes were killed by a Teleport to see how many of those kills were made by a FM against a So/Su/Ma. This way we could see if the card is mainly just working for FMs and telling us that it is a biased card. Also we could poll how many of the teams who had Teleport used against won the game to see if it is not too powerful.

I still think the ˝ range limit is necessary, it would require more skill to be used and it would benefit all the Heroes the same.
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diesbudt

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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2010, 01:02:17 PM MT »

No, it isn't biased.

Wizard can teleport  and attack + demonic lash + disentigrate at 15 valor

Sorc can teleport and Fireball + lightning + attack + 1 mana spell

Sum can teleport and attack + 3 str skeleton + 1 mana spell



All units can do a lot of damage on a teleport. But it requires 2 things. 1 - Luck from the dice, if the dice fail, they cant get far away and will be low on cards/mana.   2 - That you didn't prepare for a teleport assault (havent been killed via teleport in a long while myself)

(force field) Also, the def of the units have been dropped in 1.4 because it took tooo long killing them, adding a buff to retroact that would be pointless. Plus, every card has to be good for each hero and that would be useless for the FM.

I know you say "maybe its too early in the community to tell"   But maybe you are "just in the minority" because you havn't learned how to deal with the teleass attacks or how to use them properly.

And FM?  yes many people use Fm for something beyond what teleport does (its called not being stunned)

But My wizard and sorceress have won almost as much as my FM. The 1/2 distance doesn't increase or decrease the skill what so ever, it just gives them more time to gather a combo of cards, or more cards so they can go all out. Because if I am already part way to midfield, 5 movement steps and i can teleport anyhere. Doesn't change anything.

And if it is a circumstance where there are few units left and you play defense waiting for them to do the first move, you are allowing yourself to be teleport beaten. You have to keep the pressure on, this is why playing defensively (plus FMs flash)  doesn't work and is considered a "noobish" strategy. You have to be somewhere in the middle of O and D.
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1EasyGamer

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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2010, 03:27:59 PM MT »

I only brought this up because in 1 day of playing I had 4 people mention this as too easy and cheap shot way of playing and I kind of agreed (not top ranked people but not newbies either). Also my personal experience was that it was mostly being used by FMs as a kill 12 Def Hero weapon. I am not saying it cannot be used by the other Heroes only that it is more likely to be used by FM more effectively than the others. An FM can be Inspired and SongValored in the first turn and the next and the next, it is immediately ready for a strong Teleport assault, in 2v2+ games with possible multiple Bards they are very strong very fast. A So/Su/Ma has to wait for the cards and build a combo they are not going to boost themselves with a Bard and attack Melee, it's too risky for them. I guess the idea of having a So/Su/Ma Def 15 sounds like a challenge at least you will know what you are dealing with as opposed to the Teleport and it does not sound as bad as playing 20 minutes of a game and just have your So/Su/Ma quickly killed. In essence all this talk is subjective, only like I said running the numbers on the Teleport seeing who is benefiting the most is objective and then it might still not be desirable too change anything cause people rather have the Teleport wild, unpredictable factor as it is; I don't but then maybe I am in the minority. Teleport away Captain  Smiley
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space

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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2010, 05:22:00 PM MT »

Teleport is fair in my opinion. You have to have proper combo cards to even execute a good tele attack without leaving your mage exposed not to mention the dice.

Teleport is a deadly card but realistically all of the cards are dangerous if the circumstances provide.
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diesbudt

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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2010, 06:10:48 PM MT »

Teleport is a deadly card but realistically all of the cards are dangerous if the circumstances provide.

This is so true, no one realizes it.
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1EasyGamer

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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 11:22:05 PM MT »

After further consideration to what you have all said I think you are right Teleport is a deadly, unpredictable card that can be skillfully used by any of the Heroes. Maybe the reason I have not seen it used by So/Su/Ma and mostly by FMs is because I just did not play against other Heroes that have used the Teleport as much. I like to play chess were all things can be planned both offensively and defensibly, usually one loses because of an oversight in calculation, with Teleport it just feels like you lost because, no particular reason, not really your fault, if the dice favors the attacker who took the gamble you lose; if you survive and you have kept some useful cards then you are looking pretty good I suppose. Teleport does make this game very interesting and I guess I just have to get over it and enjoy the card in all its complexity and uncertainty.
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diesbudt

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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2010, 05:03:19 AM MT »

I like to play chess were all things can be planned both offensively and defensibly, usually one loses because of an oversight in calculation, with Teleport it just feels like you lost because, no particular reason, not really your fault, if the dice favors the attacker who took the gamble you lose; if you survive and you have kept some useful cards then you are looking pretty good I suppose.

Thats the key right there. I love chess also, but this isn't chess (which is 100% skill), this is HM which has a balance of skill/luck in duels of 40/60 respectively, and skill/luck/"political manipulation"  in FFA/Teams of 35/50/15 respectively.

But yes that is the thing with teleport it is a huge gamble. Thats why i rarely teleport assault, as it requires almost a perfect hand to ensure death. (However if you combine it with a bard and a charging barb, it is deadly, but very preventable.)
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Ross Przybylski
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 11:09:11 AM MT »

Chess is my all-time favorite board game and while I have strived to make Hero Mages balanced like a chess game, the mechanics are inherently different.  Chess is all strategy where the only factors determining the outcome of the game are the decisions made by you and your opponent.  In a real-world battle, strategic decisions are only a small part of the various factors that go into determining the final outcome.  The dice and other random factors of the game are designed to account for the unpredicatability you encounter on the battlefield.
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Vinlain

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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 11:57:38 PM MT »

personally, I prefer to have tele assaults with wizard just b/c hand building is soo much easier and the 1 extra mana (plus a free card) at 15 valor is silly.  I've had a wizard teleport, melee attack, entange 6 units, then teleport #2 back to safety and his hand size was still what it was before he moved.  It is easily made powerful with an entire # of strategies.

The only time Tele assaults feel really awful is, let's say, 1st turn, I've had me and my partner tele ass the last player to move and he never got to go.  Or the other day, sorc tele's next to me (i was 2nd to go) seeker for 4, melee for 2, walks back to range of the gaurdian units and my wiz is dead before I take a turn.  Things like this speak more to the poor quality of a lot of the maps really than anything else but can be frustrating.  I would like to see tele not be used on the first turn by any player, but I guess until the maps are los balanced to prevent first turn psi/rogue gankage this is a moot point anyways.
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