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Author Topic: fm, and bard  (Read 10042 times)
the stoat

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« on: October 20, 2010, 10:19:20 PM MT »

I want to throw it out there that the FighterMage and bard are too powerful. Why?

- FM's unstunnable ability negates the effectiveness of 3 spells: iceshards, blizzard, sleep. These 3 spells are easily the most powerful in the game, as they allow melee units to close in on a stunned mage. so by shrugging off a stun, the FM is way more mobile, and takes 6-12 less free dice than any other spell caster
- FM can negate most cover on current map sizes. the flash ability, available so early, means that there is no benefit to strategic placement of your own mage. one card, any card, still puts the mage at risk of a flash/disintegrate, flash/stun, etc. this means that your own"safe" squares are reduced significantly, and the FM's "attack range squares" include almost the entire board.  Further, in the end game, melee units can never close the distance on a FM. At least other mages have a turn while they are sprinted, there is a slim chance for melee units to still win. In a game where position is EVERYTHING, flash is way too powerful.
- FM gets 2 extra melee rolls and an extra 2 armour? even buffed other mages can't match this feat. plus, this is available without any valor needed. it's like an extra 2 free abilities vs any other mage.
- FM's dragon fury is similar. the sorceress's 15 valor ability gets an extra 1 damage (if a spell hits!) which is equivalent to, say, a half a demonic lash spell, or half a touch of death spell. Dragon Fury is equivalent to 3 archons might spells, and 3 armour of aegis spells. (9 mana benefit, with the only trade off being non-permanence). Most other abilities of spellasters have a 1 mana benefit. even the wizard, which is the next most powerful, only gains 2 mana benefit for their 15 valor ability.
- FM's augment ability is the only ability I'd say is fair. BUT, when combined with the others here, it means way too many die are needed to damage/kill a FM. only 10 valor and 1 mana (armour of aegis) are needed to make the FM a better melee unit than any specialist guardian. The other mages have to work soooo hard to defend, the FM so little.

Overall, I'd say the FM has more attacking power AND more defensive power than any other mage. There are too many cards that benefit a FM, and only 4 that can be used to defend against it (dispel, imprison, shield, barricade) all of these only defend for 1 turn. Being impossible to stun, there are no 2 turn offensive combos that can be used to kill it. He can move too far, buff himself too much, and combine too well with other units, such as the bard.

On the bard, he also is too powerful for a guardian. he effectively acts a a spellcaster, being able to cast multiple archons mights with 1 card, the equivalent of heaps of mana in team games.  he is also able to buff at any distance. the nearest equivalent is the warrior, who must be close, can only buff defensively, and who's defensive buff can be dispelled, hexed or sundered. the bards offensive buffs have no such drawback.  the bard has all the benefits of the psi, plus extra armour and melee. he is a spellcaster and guardian in one.

Suggestions:

- get rid of the FM's unstun. reduce his armour or attack by 2
- reduce bards armour or attack by 1 and make the inspire buff only add 2 or 3 to each dice
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kefkam

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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2010, 11:19:27 AM MT »

totally agree, they are far too poweful.

i think removing the unstun would balance with another heros.

but the fun is that different heroes has very different skill, and the "unstun" is what makes the FM very diferent to all others.




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FrontaLobotomy

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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2010, 05:42:45 PM MT »

Personally, I think its fine.  Just like all other units, you know what their abilities are.  sure, that FM may be able to flash disintegrate at ya, but you know he can.  Again, just myself, but ive learned to play each mage a bit different. 
And saying that the immunity to stuns negates 3 spells is quite a stretch.  I will grant that it totally negates sleep.   however I find myself discarding most stun cards against FM's, to use for abilities, taking other units into consideration. 

I rarely find other mages lack of def, or dice as a hindrance, usually if im in a place where it matters, I've already lost,  and if I was using FM,  I wouldnt be there in the first place.

All units are OP in situational circumstances, Its knowing how to prevent/exploit these that let you win.  Sometimes, theres nothing you can do, a great hand, in a skilled player, with optimal circumstances, you are going to lose.  Or at least put to  a disadvantage.

But, what do i know, lets see if anyone else has got an opinion

 Regards,

    FL
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Ross Przybylski
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2010, 09:43:39 PM MT »

Interesting thoughts.  It's funny how the Bard was initially such an underwhelming character and has now become so popular with the Song of Valor (especially for teamgames).  Inspire has always been her signature move; I'd considered changing it before, but dies and many others said it wouldn't be worth the 1 card cost for anything less than 4 (I'm inclined to agree).

As for FM- his immunity to stun and extra Defense lend him additional strengths to maps like Circle of Slaughter, which wasn't considered in his initial design.  Rather than eliminate the ability, what if the order of his abilities was altered?  For example, Flash could be 0 Valor, Relentless 5 Valor.  Or, dare I suggest Augment Superior be 0 valor?  I think moving Relentless too far up the chain will limit its usefulness, but I'm open to suggestions.
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ZaWolf

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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2010, 04:26:31 AM MT »

Let's not forget the fact that FM can flash out of barrier!!!!  That's definitely unfair.  You practically can't do anything to FM.
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Ross Przybylski
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2010, 07:47:12 AM MT »

Actually, you can't Flash out of an Imprison (I think that's what you mean).  The only way to escape Imprison is either Teleport, Gateway, or Dispel Magic.
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the stoat

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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2010, 06:12:49 PM MT »

I think moving relentless to higher valor is at least a start. Aug superior is definitely the least threatening of his abilities, so can sit at 0 valor. Perhaps relentless could cost a card, so one must choose when they want to use it? Can I also add that the FM in the hands of a bot is also extra powerful, as bots cannot use most of wizards strengths, cast summons at all the wrong spots with summoner, and kill own units a lot with sorceress. FM however, really suits their aggressive patterns.

If I can't convince you of the merits of change, I at least challenge thee to come up with more reasons than imprison why he should remain as is...


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Ross Przybylski
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2010, 11:27:16 PM MT »

FM was designed to be the most forgiving, easy to play mage- especially for the aggressive types.  He's like the Space Marines or Necrons in Warhammer 40k.  His abilities make him powerful; but not imbalanced with the other characters.  The Wizard is like the Dark Eldar- by far the most fragile- but in the hands of a skilled player, exceptionally powerful and easily capable of controlling the game.

The reason he has immunity to stun is because he is meant to be on the front lines, up in the enemy's face slicing through mages.  Without this ability, the risk of charging a mage like that would be too great as a simple stun would leave him completely vulnerable.

The one exception where I would agree his abilities might overshadow the other mages is a map without cover (like Circle of Slaughter).  Here the extra Defense and protection from stun give exceptional advantage over the other mage's starting abilities.  This is where changing the order of his abilities might make sense.  He'd lose advantage on open maps, but the Augment Superior as starting ability would be huge benefit on every other map (+2 blooms and archons mights on the first turn).  Perhaps the order could go Flash, Augment Superior, Relentless, Dragon's Fury.  It would be a weird readjustment for players used to the immediate stun immunity benefit, though.

Diesbudt- you still reading the forum?  Any thoughts?
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diesbudt

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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2010, 12:45:38 AM MT »

FM was designed to be the most forgiving, easy to play mage- especially for the aggressive types.  He's like the Space Marines or Necrons in Warhammer 40k.  His abilities make him powerful; but not imbalanced with the other characters.  The Wizard is like the Dark Eldar- by far the most fragile- but in the hands of a skilled player, exceptionally powerful and easily capable of controlling the game.

The reason he has immunity to stun is because he is meant to be on the front lines, up in the enemy's face slicing through mages.  Without this ability, the risk of charging a mage like that would be too great as a simple stun would leave him completely vulnerable.

The one exception where I would agree his abilities might overshadow the other mages is a map without cover (like Circle of Slaughter).  Here the extra Defense and protection from stun give exceptional advantage over the other mage's starting abilities.  This is where changing the order of his abilities might make sense.  He'd lose advantage on open maps, but the Augment Superior as starting ability would be huge benefit on every other map (+2 blooms and archons mights on the first turn).  Perhaps the order could go Flash, Augment Superior, Relentless, Dragon's Fury.  It would be a weird readjustment for players used to the immediate stun immunity benefit, though.

Diesbudt- you still reading the forum?  Any thoughts?


Mhm, i still read the forums and log in once in a great while as guest to watch things. Too busy to get snookered into a game if I actually log in so had to be careful.

The Fighter mage overall, is in my words "Balanced", he is a bit more powerful than the other units for only 1 reason and that will be addressed. Lets look at each ability for all 4 mages 1 at a time:

---From this point on *** means on topic, everything else is my just finishing a thought for all those interested.

0 valor:  

***When it comes to this ability, the fighter mage has the best as he can't be stunned (One of everyones favorite ways of cornering a mage, though it is so easy keeping a summon/guardian/paladin when with non FM mages, that if you get caught stunned and cant unstun your mage, your doing something wrong. [unless its a perfect blizzard placement and hit all moment])

***So all the ability really does is force your opponent to waste a small attack or card to free your hero, BUT in doing so they may have thought themselves safe and got too close allowing you to make a perfect counter strike (I personally have won many games people not expecting me to attack my own hero to unfreeze them.)  And many units are good for this: psionist, rogue, paladin, and warrior to name a few.

The weakest is the summoners, as the unlimited summons early in a game doesn't make a big deal until 5 valor and later on when she can go through the spells once or twice fully playing all the summons she wants.

The wizard and sorceress both have powerful abilities in either using cheaper game changing spells (wizard) or making more powerful long range bombs to blitz an enemy with (Sorc)  

5 valor:

When it comes to the 5 valor moves the hero with the best is hands down the sorceress, I still feel deeply a free 3 dice attack on any line per turn is quite powerful. Just ask my cousin who abused it as such killing 2 of 3 heros in a 3v3 in a single turn.

The weakest actually comes down to the wizard, as his is just a 1 card cycle, that CAN [keyword] be a game changer, but has a better chance that it wont be.

***The summoner constant barrage of summons and the Fighter mages flash abilities are average. The many summons can overwhelm an unprepared enemy, or be used as blocking/healing fodder which can make the summoner the hardest to kill if you don't kill her the first turn you strike her. The fighter mages flash is good, but since it is limited to "movement" spaces and have to be adjacent (not surrounding) it isn't problem matic and quite easy to beat. You will very rarely see me stand within flash range of an enemy FM when im not a FM myself if they have flash. It isn't hard to do. Plus requiring 1 card can mean your opponent won't have enough ammo to kill someone if he tries going all out not fully planned.

10 valor

The best 10 valor ability has to be the summoners. With an easy 3 heal for a single card (no mana) she can spend the same amount of "points" [1 point = 1 mana or 1 card] as a healing touch to heal herself 3 AND do 2-3 damage to a closing in opponent. (2 points in total when mixed with the 5 valor ability)

***The worse is by far the Fighter mages ability.  1 extra stat in most categories won't change the game much, and with 2 dispells per deck, and sunder armors (for if he uses the +1 def spell) that ability doesn't hold up very well.

The wizard and sorceress both have average abilities, with the wizards being better at game changing because of the extra card (plus 1 less mana) for game changing spells, but the sorc does get a mana free long distance nuke. (3 points and you can do 3+3+3+4 (13) dice on an opponent who is on the other side of the board [rogue + psionist + fireball + lightning])

15 valor:

Now to choose a best 15 valor would be completely hard. Because both the wizard and the sorceress have completely amazing abilities in this category. an extra mana per turn vs 1 extra damage on each spell. Great devestating abilities.

***The summoners and fighter mages abilities are ok... but not great. Sure the FM can make himself a hard hitting tank, but for the cost of 2 cards (and unless combined with a bard, making it 4 cards), he cant keep doing that and expect to cast any of the "game changing spells" I have been mentioning.  The summoner's ability is bleh. Only because +1 str and +1 def only works if she can get an army going. With most summons being 1 or 2 hp, they are too easy to kill even with the extra def. which means most don't ever get more than an initial attack on a unit within 5 spaces.


So where am I going with this?

***First the Fighter mage is good where he is, He is a beast early game because his best 2 abilities are 0 and 5 valor, but once the game starts moving into its late stages, he is not the best or second best (I wont give away where I judge the heros at each stage of the game) UNLESS [Keyword] modifed by a bard.

Now why is that?  it isnt the +1 STR buff, that isn't what made the bard become so amazing, it has to do with the -1 def most units took last time huge changes to the game happened.

***The fighter mage overall isn't the best unit, it is the easiest unit to succeed with in a 1v1 situation however I guess you can call him noob friendly. If someone who understands the game well enough, being stunned vs not being stunned isn't as big of a deal in a game as people think it is.

***REASON: Because something changes in their "gameplan" (aka being stunned) they get upset and call it too powerful. I see this with so many different games. Thats why long ago I adopted a new way of playing games, and it entrails that I never pre plan. I just react to what happens, and prepare for all possibilities with previous reactions. I didn't have a better chance of losing because I chose a sorc/sum/wiz when my opponent has a FM, because I learned how to deal with it quick and easy.

Also, most games now the killing of heros happens 2 ways. 1 - teleport assault with everything they have  or 2 - Spike an opponent far away with everything they have (My favorite way, which is why I ran a sorc/psi/rogue last few months I played - because Killing an enemies hero who pops their head around a corner, before he or any of his guardians can reach me, makes me smile.)

Conclusion:

Most offensive unit - Sorc
Most devious Unit - Wizard
Most underestimated unit - Summoner
Most defensive unit - Fighter mage.

Now some things that wouldn't be a huge problem to changing the game is:

1) Bard's inspire = +4 ---> +3
2) FM unstun ability = Cannot be stunned ---> cannot be stunned by sleep and does not get stunned by ice shards or blizzard unless 2 or more dice connect.
3) Sorc's lightning = 0 cards and a diagonal direction ---> 1 card, and hits both diagonal directions (left and right of sorc, or down and up of sorc, or up-left and down-right diagonal of sorc)

1] Since the armor change, moving her inspire down to 3 would be a good thing making her not be all so powerful anymore (You could also limit her +1 str buff if you wanted to, to just guardians and not heroes in LoS on the same team, this would reduce the bard + fm strength problem.)
2] Has a greatly reduced odds to be stunned with 14 armor, but still leaves the opponents who complain how unfair his ability is hope.
3] Adding 1 card to the ability would balance it and take away her free 3 dice always, but in addition now she can position and shoot 2 opposite ways at once, possibly being more devestating, OR more risky.

- Diesbudt

P.S. I want new units.

P.P.S. Yes, I don't dissappoint, when I comment on the forums I REALLY comment on them.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 12:47:12 AM MT by diesbudt » Logged
ZaWolf

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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2010, 07:12:28 AM MT »

Diesbudt-- you admitted FM "is the easiest unit to succeed with in a 1v1 situation".

This is the point.  If he's the easiest unit to succeed with in a 1v1 situation then he's over powered in all situations!  Most every game comes down to a 1v1 situation in the end (of course some come down to 2v1 or 3v1.. but not the majority).  Plus, you pretend like high valor puts FM out of the game.. FM is actually very good with high valor, considering he has dragon fury-- which makes hitting him super hard without a dispell (and practically impossible with aegis armor + his augment superior ability)

That means, in almost all games, FM is the easiest to succeed with.


Let's compare FM to Sorc.

Relentless > destructive aura  (by far!)
Flash > lightning bolt
Augment Superior < fireball 
Dragon's Fury = Nature's Wrath (practically equal I'd say)

Even if you argue their abilities are equal..  Which you spent your whole post doing..

FM has still has + 2 more str! and +1 more def!

Also, there is no hiding from a Fire Mage.  He can get to you, from any where on the map.  However, to get to a well placed Fire Mage, you need to spend 2 mana for teleport and then you can't do anything if he's full health, cause your hero doesn't have that extra 2 str (plus he has 1 more def to block you).  You only have one mana, and an attack that most times won't hit for any damage (2 rolls with sorc/sum/wiz, each with a 14/20 or 70% chance to miss or 49% chance to miss all and only a 9% chance to hit for 2 damage).  FM just moves, sprints, flashes and he can get to practically anywhere on the board.  And all he needs is 2 cards, which is nothing considering you'll most always have junk cards.  Which leaves him 3 mana to destroy you, or near destroy you then stun you.  Same can't be said for different heroes going against FM.  Not to mention if he's in your face, even w/o dragon's fury, he has 4 rolls (12/20 chance to miss most mages each roll or 40% chance each roll to hit with only a 13% chance to miss all rolls oppose to 49% with other mages.. and 75.5% chance to hit for 2 or greater oppose to 9% with other mages)--- if you followed the math you can see even w/o dragon's fury FM is WAY better attacking.  Just remember, all other mages: tele + 1 mana and 9% chance to hit for 2  --- FM: flash (2 cards) + 3 mana and 75.5% chance to hit for 2 OR greater!

FM against other mages has more strategic ability (he can stun they can't-- plus he can get further around the map) + he has the benefit of dealing killer blows on attacks and taking less damage.

The course of options are-- take away his +2 str +1 def... or take away his flash ability or relentless ability.  I think either of those 3 options would make him a fair unit.

Until then, the only reason I play different mages is just for the fun of it.  If I were serious about winning, I would probably pick FM + bard + warrior (or maybe rogue) every time.

Conclusion:

Diesdbudt-- by arguing the abilities are equal (FM best 0 valor, sorc 5, sum 10, wiz 15 and the rest average) you prove the point FM is superior since FM clearly has way better stats. +2 str and +1 (or +2 if summoner or wiz) def than other mages.  You understand that right?  Abilities maybe equal, but if they're equal that means stats are the deciding factor of whose better.

Also you said flash is the weakest of 10 valor abilities.. 2 cards is nothing (even if you want to argue it as high cost).   And you forget how well flash compliments his super strength compare to other mages (+super duper strength with dragon fury ability).

FM is overall best mage.  I'm pretty sure it's a fact more than an opinion.
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diesbudt

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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2010, 10:27:30 AM MT »

Point A - Diesbudt-- you admitted FM "is the easiest unit to succeed with in a 1v1 situation".

Point B - That means, in almost all games, FM is the easiest to succeed with.

Point C - Let's compare FM to Sorc.

Relentless > destructive aura  (by far!)
Flash > lightning bolt
Augment Superior < fireball 
Dragon's Fury = Nature's Wrath (practically equal I'd say)

Point A - Wolf, thanks for you post, but You are still "new-ish" to this game, so I hope you can try to understand what I am about to say and in no way am I bashing you or anything. The FM is easiest to succeed with means, if you are new it is more forgiving "Forgetting to hide your mage, moving too close too fast etc." (Point A)  He isn't hard to beat and I beat them ALL the time. Basically, once you understand the game in the way I do, you realize all the units are balance, just at different times of the game (FM early on has the better abilities, but once people hit 10-15 valor, he is no longer that great. To think otherwise is wrong. (Not and opinion, its a fact. If i could should you the stats I have see of all the games I have played, FM fails to work so well late in the game.)

So yes he is the "easiest" to succeed with IF (maybe that wasnt clear) you are new. Personally, I see him as one of the weakest, which is why I use sorc and Wizard all the time.

Point B - Similar to Point A.  Big team games, or FFA  sorceress wizard and summoner have way more success. Sure the FM with a bard can take out 1 team, but another team is there to finish him off. He has to get close to do the damage, the summoner and sorc can stay back safe. In a 1v1 situation he has the advantage because no one can flank him or take him out after he uses all he has to attack.

Point C -

Relentless is > destructive aura. Only because that means there is 2 cards unusable on him that can be used on sorc (personally I love +1 dice to all my destrcution spells). As I said, other mages already have it too easy to break out of stun if you prepare. If you don't well you deserve to be stunned and cleaved down.

Flash is NOT greater than lightning bolt.  A 1 card jump for 4 spaces that requires certain positioning, and doesn't do anything else is no where near a free 3 dice per unit in a line (have seen this do 8 damage to 4 total units. 8 damage for 0 cards and mana is the MOST powerful ability in the early game. If you don't agree, you are not seeing the whole picture.

Fireball isnt very good. But it is better than the augumentation buffs as it is a 2 card 4 dice nuke. Otherwise, they both are not very good. The summoner and wizard have better 10 valor abilities.

DF and NW  They are close. However, that still requires the FM to get in range to use his ability. The sorc however, can easily attack from a distance with hers. And +1 damage? if she hits with 3 spells in a single turn, she already did minimum 6 damage, enough to kill any unbuffed unit. Unlike the FM where he has to hit HARD with his attack AND w/e spells he carries. (It can also be dispelled, unlike the sorcs ability.

The FM has +2 strength and +1 def yes. But that is because he is ment to be played melee. I have seen so many people fail trying to use him like a sorc (I wont mention names).

Also you complain he has +1 STR, yet what about the sorc who gets +1 str to every spell she casts? and she never has to get in range?  Weakening his stats any would make him the worse hero, and right now hes balanced either 2 or 3 depending how you look at it.

Ah so you think teleport is also too strong based on your "can get you anywhere post" Let me tell you, i haven't lost to one in a long time. Why? Because, you have to pressure your opponent, you cant be defensive and wait for that perfect hand. And not to mention a teleport costs 2 mana, and severly limits what else a FM can do that turn. Also since no unit can attack after sprinting, a Move > sprint > flash isnt a dangerous thing. Unless your hero only has 1-2 health (which in that case its already to late for you for the most part)

I never argued saying the FM's abilities were better:  If you fully read the post you would see that what I said was:

0 valor ability:   FM > Sorc > Wiz > sum
5 valor ability: Sorc > FM > Sum > wiz
10 valor ability: Sum > wiz > sorc > FM
15 valor ability: Wiz > Sorc > FM > sum

If you want to take those cold hard facts and use simple math. The FM is perfectly balanced, so is the wizard. The sorceress however has no bad abilities and is the "better" hero (just less forgiving unlike the FM), and the summoner is the "lesser" hero (Which is why for the most part she isn't played all too often.)

And as I said  FM is not the best. Thats a fact. that is however all your opinions. If we were to go back 3-4 months, it was clear that everyone thought the FM too weak and the sorc too powerful.

Also, the hero is not the only piece, what you combine them with makes a massive difference in the game too. The hero + guardian combo makes a HUGE difference than just hero vs hero (which is all your arguing) which rarely happens, unless the 2 players are very much of equal skill/strategy.

Conclusion: Overall The FM is fine, he is supposed to be a melee hero, and have the higher attack and def. With the unstun ability he can do that. The only problem with the FM is that for the first 2-4 turns (before players have 5+ valor) the FM is superior. But once a game gets moving, he loses a lot of his luster. It isn't the FM himself thats the problem people are having, its the combos/guardians he CAN use to be quite powerful (just like every other hero has their combos, just harder to see them)

And for anyone wishing to hear how ive rated them since the last big update:

Sorc > Fm > wiz > sum.

Change ideas to the game (added more):

1) Bard's inspire = +4 ---> +3
2) FM unstun ability = Cannot be stunned ---> cannot be stunned by sleep and does not get stunned by ice shards or blizzard unless 2 or more dice connect.
3) Sorc's lightning = 0 cards and a diagonal direction ---> 1 card, and hits both diagonal directions (left and right of sorc, or down and up of sorc, or up-left and down-right diagonal of sorc)
4) Teleport = Now should be a tile in LoS. (lets be honest here... how does someone teleport to a spot they cant see, i mean think of the repercussions of teleporting on ir even IN someone!?) This still retains its long distance ability, but forces a player to use it more skillfully, than watching a lot of noobs fail at teleport assaults against me.
5) Imprision = bring this back down to 1 mana, the Mages need easier ways to stay a bit more protective.
6) Summon abilities:
--a) Army of darkness - a summoner may have unlimited summons and they each have +1 def
--b) Keep same
--c) Keep same
--d) *NEW - (2-card) Soul Link - Summon a black fountain on a surrounding tile. It has 3 hp. Anytime a summon gets hit (as long as this is active) this box loses 1 hp instead of the targeted summon.

Black fountain's stats - (0 str, 6 def, 3 life)
Ability 1 - Inanimated object - this unit cannot move, attack, or be affected by augumentation, restoration, or manipulation spells. This unit can be passed through by other units (allowing players to walk through it, but cannot land on it)
Ability 2 - This unit takes damage for any summon except a flesh golem, as long as it is alive, preventing damage to targeted summon.

Just some idea changes to help balance some the units out.

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Kin

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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2010, 11:31:11 AM MT »

I think FM's anti-stun is fine. In fact, he probably needs it. Considering how FM is a melee focused mage, he has to expose himself more often in order to take advantage of his full capabilities.
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the stoat

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« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2010, 06:02:13 PM MT »

Well, good to have you back Dies, I agree with most of your points, but not the conclusions you draw from them. Let's agree on the point that mana/cards are the most important thing in the game, and look again:

1)
"
Quote
it is so easy keeping a summon/guardian/paladin when with non FM mages, that if you get caught stunned and cant unstun your mage"

unstun with a melee attack requires units to be constantly within 5 spaces of a mage. How do you keep "constant pressure" on, AND keep your units near a mage? even if in range, an attack means you take away the ability to sprint, plus at least 2 dice of offence, plus you must roll minimum 2 dice at yourself. Even paladin needs a card and LOS to do something FM gets for free.

2) summoner does suck, they are card pits. - nice suggestions for changes

3)
Quote
You will very rarely see me stand within flash range of an enemy FM when im not a FM myself if they have flash. It isn't hard to do

I have over 600 games under my belt and I find it hard. 5 move, 4 flash, 2-7 sprint, plus he can go through objects. this is beyond me to calculate each turn in 1 minute, on small maps which generally only have 3 "safe" squares to put my mage. I agree sorc lightning is very powerful, but it can only be used for offence. FM flash can be used for defence as well - he can't be cornered. 1 card, any card, to get out of any trap? yes please! you'll now note that other mages need cards, and the right cards to either attack or defend an FM for more than 1 turn.

4) augment is not very good, but again, it needs no cards to "work". the summoner needs 2 cards for its heal - one to summon, one to sacrifice

5) most 1v1 these days are decided in the first 2 turns. So yes, wiz has a good 15 valor ability, but it's tough to get him there!

So note that all the abilities we like, are ones where we get something for free, or without needing a specific card -

Sorc: lightning, NW, Fireball
FM: relentless, augment, flash, extra stats, DF
Summoner: sacrifice, skelly
Wiz: mana surge

So with the FM, we have a whole heap of benefits early in the game, that need no LOS, no cards, but also, are hard to counter with strategy. Add that to the mathematical and observational evidence(everyone uses this unit), and I still see a lot of benefits in changing the unit.

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diesbudt

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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2010, 09:42:51 PM MT »

unstun with a melee attack requires units to be constantly within 5 spaces of a mage. How do you keep "constant pressure" on, AND keep your units near a mage? even if in range, an attack means you take away the ability to sprint, plus at least 2 dice of offence, plus you must roll minimum 2 dice at yourself. Even paladin needs a card and LOS to do something FM gets for free.

Its actually not that hard, it called moving your mage from the start, I have rarly ever had problems playing that way and pressureing an opponent. And trust me sometimes a 2 dice attack is meaningless when trying to spike your opponent, (As i said, it isn't a big cost. Maybe to some that feel its not "right" they can worry about it, but honestly I didn't win all my duels because I used FM (Note my wiz and FM hve close to same amount o duel wins/losses, sorc and sum dont because i have played with them much less.)

And the logic that others have to pay what the FM gets free can work for ANY heros ability... that is what makes them different.  Where is the complaint sorc can cast lightning for free? or the wizard can get 1 free mana "for free"Huh


[OTHER STPAT QUOTES I DONT FEEL LIKE BRACKETING, REFER TO HIS POST FOR HIS COMMENTS]

Again wat is with peopleworrying about a FM that canmove + flash + sprint to get to a mage (assuming a unit is positioned tobe flshed in such a way?) a sprinted FM cannot attack... that is his specialty... sure he could cast a spell o two... but unless you didnt take care of your mage since the start you shouldnt worry, if he kills you it was majority luck, which this games as and can happen to anyone using ANY of the 4 mages.

Cornering a FM? you do realize your opponet cant really fully surprise you with all his units at once to corner them? Its your positioning fault if they corner your non FM, myself and grudgenly people I have played withhave used the wizard, summoner, and sorceress just fine getting away while trapped in a corner that wasnt teleport or reposition. like cess the srategy does come from pre planning  some of the game, and the other half of strategy is reaction and knowing when to do A, or B, or C  etc.

Yea augument needs cards to work... they need the spells themselves AND they can be dispelled. Unlike a summoners heal (since she can cast a skele and sac it on the same turn.  BTW a sum at 10+ valor running out of cards is playing too aggressive for that mage, she is to be played by slowly damaging your opponent, keeping herself and guardians at tip top shape. So using no mana and just those abilities when hurt still = a +1 return of points as   -2 cards +3 cards for no mana used = +1 cards.

A 1v1 usually isnt decided in the first two turns... I have no idea why you would try to pass that by me as true. Only time that is true is A) 1 player got the perfect hand with the perfect setup (think teleport). or 2. IF the players skills are so far difference. Most 1v1s I have played and watched as a guest this last month has been close to 10-15 turns before a clear advantage was on someones side.)

Yes it is nice to get for free abilities, but think of this... if we agree to your original post at the start that "we agree that mana and cards are the most important..." The FM doesnt use cards in the same way. All o his "best" abilities (buffs/flash and maybe a spell here and there" doesnt use much mana as he is better at using cards for ability fodder. Which makes your "cards most important" and "FM over powered" statements contradictory.

And again saying you played over 600 games? do I need to state my "ranking" for wter garbage that means or that I have played well over 1100 games nad have seen the exact opposite that the FM isn't very good in most games. (Ever since using the wizard and sorc a lot, I cant seem to like the FM as he requires too much ... whats the word?  "oomph" to enjoy or use in a way that can kill your opponent and keep your heros safe. (WHy do youy think the rogue is so popular? he doesnt have top get close to the action... which is he same for the ither 3 mages, they can stay back and be at "full power" but the fm requires to get into the fray, meaning to close the gap he needs SOME protection... idk  like the ability to be non stunned or a reduced chance to be stunned AND a higher def?

I dont know... all my conclusion make sense to me and many other games smilar to this and their players... but hey what do I know?
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ZaWolf

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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2010, 11:39:18 AM MT »

I can't believe you're still trying to say flash is a weak ability...

You say, "I never argued saying the FM's abilities were better" -- I never said you did.  I said-- you said the abilities were balanced.  And you prove this in your post:

"0 valor ability:   FM > Sorc > Wiz > sum
5 valor ability: Sorc > FM > Sum > wiz
10 valor ability: Sum > wiz > sorc > FM
15 valor ability: Wiz > Sorc > FM > sum"

FM has 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th place abilities.  Meaning statistically overall, ability wise, he is average.  If he is average in terms of abilities, and ALSO has higher stats..  That means he's better.  Average abilities + Higher stats = above average unit.  I think that's pretty easy to understand.

I'm not saying FM should not have relentless, or should not have flash, or should have equal stats... I'm simply saying, something needs to be altered about him to make him equal out.  Something that would make him have Below Average Abilities + Higher Stats (like a fighter) and not Average Abilities + Higher Stats.

Perhaps, making relentless immunity to sleep.  Or immunity to just freeze.  Rather than all stuns.  Or perhaps making it so he loses a random card as payment to prevent the stun.  This would make using sleep actually have a use on FM (drain him of cards).  Or maybe make flash cost 2 cards.  Or make flash 2 spaces, so it's specifically for closing the gap and not so great for getting out of a trap as well.  I'm not sure how exactly to debuff him.  But I do think he needs a slight debuffing.  Nothing super major like completely dropping his relentless ability (because then he becomes the weakest hero instead of the strongest, rather than a balanced hero).


On a side note:  I think a card that makes the opponent lose 2 random cards would be a cool card.  Or a card that allows you to see an opponent's hand.


My conclusion: No matter what you say, no matter what evidence you show, hard headed people don't change their mind (and that includes me).  Smiley
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